8.5%

[[er...]]

.

[[bu...]]

About seven days ago I dropped .063MGs off of .75MGs daily of Klonopin. That's only 8.5%. Today I feel like I was hit by a truck. If I hold at .75MGs I feel like shit and I get tired of feeling like that all the time but as soon as I drop even a small amount off of the .75MGs the shit hits the fan. Then I up dose only to find it harder to start a taper again. What a rat race. And having my doctor telling me that symptoms like muscle spasms in the back of my neck and tinnitus can't be taper related. I told him about this forum and how people say all the time that they experience tinnitus from benzo tapering and he says it's impossible! Jesus.

If someone's tapering off of a strong muscle relaxer I would think that it's at least a possibility that their going to have muscle spasms. I think the worst thing that you can tell a doctor that you were reading something on the internet. What do you think? About the spasms.

 

"...only 8.5%?  That's a big cut!  When I was doing C&H, even a 5% hit me hard, and more than 5% is intolerable.

 

[[be...]]

Hi Ernie. Hope you had a good birthday. I normally at least right now don't worry about percents but in time I likely will. If updosing doesn't help why not ride it out for longer and then make much smaller cuts. I'm really lucky. So far no tinnitus but muscle spasms and pain. I hear ya loud and clear. I stopped googling medical stuff ages ago (for my own self preservation) but no doctors aren't fans of it either. Maybe THEY need to google more. Save us the trouble. B

[[Th...]]

About seven days ago I dropped .063MGs off of .75MGs daily of Klonopin. That's only 8.5%. Today I feel like I was hit by a truck. If I hold at .75MGs I feel like shit and I get tired of feeling like that all the time but as soon as I drop even a small amount off of the .75MGs the shit hits the fan. Then I up dose only to find it harder to start a taper again. What a rat race. And having my doctor telling me that symptoms like muscle spasms in the back of my neck and tinnitus can't be taper related. I told him about this forum and how people say all the time that they experience tinnitus from benzo tapering and he says it's impossible! Jesus.

If someone's tapering off of a strong muscle relaxer I would think that it's at least a possibility that their going to have muscle spasms. I think the worst thing that you can tell a doctor that you were reading something on the internet. What do you think? About the spasms.

 

I once had a huge blowout with my Psychiatrist over mentioning information I found on the internet. It was a new drug she put me on and I was very worried so I did a ton of research and read the whole FDA guidelines. What I was mentioning to her she swore was untrue. I blew up and told her she was a poor Dr. to not even know the FDA guidelines and for Lieing to me; it was directly in the guidelines and in the huge pamphlet about the drug. This B$&@c told me I was crazy, she literally called her own desperate very sick and at the time suicidal patient crazy, undermedicated and hung up on me. These...These are the so called professionals we are dealing with. They are embarrassed we know more than them. In the end she called me the next day and gave me a very sincere sounding apology ( probably covering her ass ). She made up some story about how she had grown to like me as a friend blah blah blah and I hurt her feeling and the lines between our relationship was being blurred and she was sorry. Sadly I still see her and forgave her as she does share very intimate details about her own battles with depression and her difficult family and it can be comforting. That night she called me crazy though was one of the most hopeless I felt.

 

Fast forward 6 months when I ask to be CO to Valium...once again she never heard anything about it and Valium was not as safe as Klonopin...total and complete BS. Her computer was infront of her and I said you ever hear of Heather Ashton? "No"... well google her. Than I get a "oh wow she has many scholarly articles and research". I said please read her manual for me.... Apparently she did as next visit she actually told me she was more than welcome to cross me over and that I have the knowledge to know what to do and she will now support any choices I want to make.

 

Now this may be more BS, but recently she told me that the increase in patients complaining about Benzos has changed her mind on how she prescribes them and she is now offering more counseling on the physical addiction and now tells her patients it's a baindaid....wow I made all this difference  :laugh: I never know what to believe anymore, write me my script and I'm on my way.

[[Th...]]

Sorry my message was lost in the quote in reference to your Dr. Here is a story.

I had a huge blowout with my Psychiatrist over mentioning information I found on the internet. It was a new drug she put me on and I was very worried so I did a ton of research and read the whole FDA guidelines. What I was mentioning to her she swore was untrue. I blew up and told her she was a poor Dr. to not even know the FDA guidelines and for Lieing to me; it was directly in the guidelines and in the huge pamphlet about the drug. This B$&@c told me I was crazy, she literally called her own desperate very sick and at the time suicidal patient crazy, undermedicated and hung up on me. These...These are the so called professionals we are dealing with. They are embarrassed we know more than them. In the end she called me the next day and gave me a very sincere sounding apology ( probably covering her ass ). She made up some story about how she had grown to like me as a friend blah blah blah and I hurt her feeling and the lines between our relationship was being blurred and she was sorry. Sadly I still see her and forgave her as she does share very intimate details about her own battles with depression and her difficult family and it can be comforting. That night she called me crazy though was one of the most hopeless I felt.

 

Fast forward 6 months when I ask to be CO to Valium...once again she never heard anything about it and Valium was not as safe as Klonopin...total and complete BS. Her computer was infront of her and I said you ever hear of Heather Ashton? "No"... well google her. Than I get a "oh wow she has many scholarly articles and research". I said please read her manual for me.... Apparently she did as next visit she actually told me she was more than welcome to cross me over and that I have the knowledge to know what to do and she will now support any choices I want to make.

 

Now this may be more BS, but recently she told me that the increase in patients complaining about Benzos has changed her mind on how she prescribes them and she is now offering more counseling on the physical addiction and now tells her patients it's a baindaid....wow I made all this difference  :laugh: I never know what to believe anymore, write me my script and I'm on my way.

[[er...]]

.

[[Th...]]

Also. I do better on Ativan than Klonopin. He will go up to 1MG daily of Klonopin, f**k that, but will only do 1MG daily of Ativan. When I look at the benzo equivalent charts on the internet I see that 1MG of Klonopin is equal to 4MGs of Ativan. Even at .75MGs of Klonopin that's 3MGs of Ativan. I don't see his logic.

Oh, and last week he put me on 600MGs daily of this Horizant. Wholly f**k. That was horrible. It's like an addictive Gabapentin on steroids. He says 'I'll start you on 300MGs but it will feel like 600MGs,' I looked at the bottle label and it was actually 600MGs.

He'll put me on crap like that but won't switch me over to a benzo that I react to better. When I was in the hospital I was put on Ativan and I did much better. And I sleep really well on Ativan.

That friggen Horizant. The label has warnings not to use it if you have an addictive personality. It also says that you need to slowly taper off of it or you can get severe withdrawal symptoms. But he's comfortable putting me on something like that. I took it for two days and then flushed the rest.

 

I swear sometimes it's a big ego blow to some Dr.s when you suggest anything. We can't have an active roll in our mental health or what we choose to put in our bodies? That hate knowing that they will be soon replaced by artificial intelligence.

[[be...]]

I'm lucky and there's no need to call out my doctor on benzos (my psychiatrist) or anything else he prescribes. He's a step ahead. But my new family doctor readily admits she has limited knowledge of benzos but doesn't disbelieve her patients who have problems with them but yet neither does she prescribe them often and only very short term. eg. Fear of flying. When I asked for Valium I was also beaten to the punch. I'd of course like all benzo googlers was highly familiar with Ashton. I believed it was the right thing to do (crossover). But he too was familiar with it and oddly didn't agree with it. But he'd read everything I'd read. I was obviously upset but I asked why not? He said he found no reason or rationale behind it (adding another benzo with limited scholarship behind it) but yet he'd still tried it with some patients who like me were utterly convinced about it. He said he was finding that except for the odd patient most regretted the slow progress that they were now having plus feeling too sedated and depressed. But I was absolutely insistent I'd be the "odd patient ". Unfortunately I wasn't. But still he knew his stuff, let me take some control (now let's me taper at my own speed) and hasn't told me I told ya so. Still he does acknowledge with some patients it's been helpful even if he doesn't quite agree with it. So there are good doctors. Just not enough. What's really hard for me right now though is that I have to go for roughly five hours to the dentist on Tuesday because I have a bad toothache and I'm being sedated so they can do everything in one visit. I'm petrified of course. In the past though (when on both Xanax, then Ativan and klonopin) my dentist always let me take the sedative an hour before coming to keep me calm. Not this time. So I'm petrified and asked why not you let me take it when I was taking 8 mg of Xanax before??? I only take 2 or 3 mg Valium in the morning. In other words this makes no sense! I even said I'd happily skip my Valium. It's because it's Valium and the long half life is problematic. Or can be apparently. Unbelievable. So now I have to wait for the pill until I get there. My dentist won't budge. But I'm allowed to take my Valium in fact I'm supposed to so he can adjust the sedation as needed. And it won't interfere with my taper. I'm not getting knocked out. Just sedation. But he's done his research too in fairness. He just wants me safe and sound there before he gives me the halcion. My daughter works with a dentist. Several. They'd all let me be pre sedated as well on the other benzos but not on Valium. Go figure. Lol I think it's a curse! But I'm really petrified so it's not a joke. Neither is the pain of this tooth. B

[[Th...]]

I'm lucky and there's no need to call out my doctor on benzos (my psychiatrist) or anything else he prescribes. He's a step ahead. But my new family doctor readily admits she has limited knowledge of benzos but doesn't disbelieve her patients who have problems with them but yet neither does she prescribe them often and only very short term. eg. Fear of flying. When I asked for Valium I was also beaten to the punch. I'd of course like all benzo googlers was highly familiar with Ashton. I believed it was the right thing to do (crossover). But he too was familiar with it and oddly didn't agree with it. But he'd read everything I'd read. I was obviously upset but I asked why not? He said he found no reason or rationale behind it (adding another benzo with limited scholarship behind it) but yet he'd still tried it with some patients who like me were utterly convinced about it. He said he was finding that except for the odd patient most regretted the slow progress that they were now having plus feeling too sedated and depressed. But I was absolutely insistent I'd be the "odd patient ". Unfortunately I wasn't. But still he knew his stuff, let me take some control (now let's me taper at my own speed) and hasn't told me I told ya so. Still he does acknowledge with some patients it's been helpful even if he doesn't quite agree with it. So there are good doctors. Just not enough. What's really hard for me right now though is that I have to go for roughly five hours to the dentist on Tuesday because I have a bad toothache and I'm being sedated so they can do everything in one visit. I'm petrified of course. In the past though (when on both Xanax, then Ativan and klonopin) my dentist always let me take the sedative an hour before coming to keep me calm. Not this time. So I'm petrified and asked why not you let me take it when I was taking 8 mg of Xanax before??? I only take 2 or 3 mg Valium in the morning. In other words this makes no sense! I even said I'd happily skip my Valium. It's because it's Valium and the long half life is problematic. Or can be apparently. Unbelievable. So now I have to wait for the pill until I get there. My dentist won't budge. But I'm allowed to take my Valium in fact I'm supposed to so he can adjust the sedation as needed. And it won't interfere with my taper. I'm not getting knocked out. Just sedation. But he's done his research too in fairness. He just wants me safe and sound there before he gives me the halcion. My daughter works with a dentist. Several. They'd all let me be pre sedated as well on the other benzos but not on Valium. Go figure. Lol I think it's a curse! But I'm really petrified so it's not a joke. Neither is the pain of this tooth. B

 

You got lucky with your Dr.s, there are good ones out there. Some of the younger Dr.s I've run across seem much more wary of Benzos which is refreshing.

[[er...]]

.

[[be...]]

Ernie I do much much better not living on Google looking for sxs. I used to but couldn't take it anymore after I thought I had scurvy. And studies that back up other studies are just often studies the same as the other studies with tweaks to make them look better. Yes I'm lucky with doctors. They're late forties early fifties. So been around the block but not junior dictators who know all but not old ones that still think benzos are candy. Multiple colours of little M&Ms. b

[[Ph...]]

Sorry my message was lost in the quote in reference to your Dr. Here is a story.

I had a huge blowout with my Psychiatrist over mentioning information I found on the internet. It was a new drug she put me on and I was very worried so I did a ton of research and read the whole FDA guidelines. What I was mentioning to her she swore was untrue. I blew up and told her she was a poor Dr. to not even know the FDA guidelines and for Lieing to me; it was directly in the guidelines and in the huge pamphlet about the drug. This B$&@c told me I was crazy, she literally called her own desperate very sick and at the time suicidal patient crazy, undermedicated and hung up on me. These...These are the so called professionals we are dealing with. They are embarrassed we know more than them. In the end she called me the next day and gave me a very sincere sounding apology ( probably covering her ass ). She made up some story about how she had grown to like me as a friend blah blah blah and I hurt her feeling and the lines between our relationship was being blurred and she was sorry. Sadly I still see her and forgave her as she does share very intimate details about her own battles with depression and her difficult family and it can be comforting. That night she called me crazy though was one of the most hopeless I felt.

 

Fast forward 6 months when I ask to be CO to Valium...once again she never heard anything about it and Valium was not as safe as Klonopin...total and complete BS. Her computer was infront of her and I said you ever hear of Heather Ashton? "No"... well google her. Than I get a "oh wow she has many scholarly articles and research". I said please read her manual for me.... Apparently she did as next visit she actually told me she was more than welcome to cross me over and that I have the knowledge to know what to do and she will now support any choices I want to make.

 

Now this may be more BS, but recently she told me that the increase in patients complaining about Benzos has changed her mind on how she prescribes them and she is now offering more counseling on the physical addiction and now tells her patients it's a baindaid....wow I made all this difference  :laugh: I never know what to believe anymore, write me my script and I'm on my way.

Great story.  I'm sure that most doctors consider the internet the bane of their existence and wish it would just go away.  I'm so damned educated now about my various conditions that a couple of doctors actually asked me if I'm a doctor.  LOL!!

[[be...]]

Ernie we all want this crap over with. Thing is why not reverse your thoughts to I'm wondering if I keep making small cuts I'll be better and better. I never would have believed that to be true at 13 mg of Valium. My rough patch but I still finally took the plunge and continued the taper and so far at least better. I don't dwell on stuff like PAWS and I took 8 mg or more of Xanax as well for 28 years. I was not tapered off but given the Ativan and klonopin in its place without knowing it. At the time I was in the hospital kind of wrecked on morphine. I finally demanded they take the drip out after 2 weeks or threatened I'd do it myself. It was then I noticed something was wrong with my Med's. Where was my Xanax? I was told no only the Ativan (tons) and klonopin and zoplicon of all things. so that was that. Until it wasn't. Then the taper. But looking back I don't dwell on any of it. Like you I simply want off this Valium as you do your klonopin. The rest is history where it belongs. Did I get screwed around by doctors. Yes like you wouldn't believe. So screw them. I won't spend my life an angry person because of them. I'm 8.5 mg of Valium away from finally being free from these drugs. Whatever happens I'll deal with it. Frankly I believe we come out stronger but I can't if I hold on to the past. Time to move forward. B

[[Na...]]

Also. I do better on Ativan than Klonopin. He will go up to 1MG daily of Klonopin, f**k that, but will only do 1MG daily of Ativan. When I look at the benzo equivalent charts on the internet I see that 1MG of Klonopin is equal to 4MGs of Ativan. Even at .75MGs of Klonopin that's 3MGs of Ativan. I don't see his logic.

Oh, and last week he put me on 600MGs daily of this Horizant. Wholly f**k. That was horrible. It's like an addictive Gabapentin on steroids. He says 'I'll start you on 300MGs but it will feel like 600MGs,' I looked at the bottle label and it was actually 600MGs.

He'll put me on crap like that but won't switch me over to a benzo that I react to better. When I was in the hospital I was put on Ativan and I did much better. And I sleep really well on Ativan.

That friggen Horizant. The label has warnings not to use it if you have an addictive personality. It also says that you need to slowly taper off of it or you can get severe withdrawal symptoms. But he's comfortable putting me on something like that. I took it for two days and then flushed the rest.

 

1mg K is = to 4mgs of Ativan? Boy that's a new one

[[be...]]

I'm lucky and there's no need to call out my doctor on benzos (my psychiatrist) or anything else he prescribes. He's a step ahead. But my new family doctor readily admits she has limited knowledge of benzos but doesn't disbelieve her patients who have problems with them but yet neither does she prescribe them often and only very short term. eg. Fear of flying. When I asked for Valium I was also beaten to the punch. I'd of course like all benzo googlers was highly familiar with Ashton. I believed it was the right thing to do (crossover). But he too was familiar with it and oddly didn't agree with it. But he'd read everything I'd read. I was obviously upset but I asked why not? He said he found no reason or rationale behind it (adding another benzo with limited scholarship behind it) but yet he'd still tried it with some patients who like me were utterly convinced about it. He said he was finding that except for the odd patient most regretted the slow progress that they were now having plus feeling too sedated and depressed. But I was absolutely insistent I'd be the "odd patient ". Unfortunately I wasn't. But still he knew his stuff, let me take some control (now let's me taper at my own speed) and hasn't told me I told ya so. Still he does acknowledge with some patients it's been helpful even if he doesn't quite agree with it. So there are good doctors. Just not enough. What's really hard for me right now though is that I have to go for roughly five hours to the dentist on Tuesday because I have a bad toothache and I'm being sedated so they can do everything in one visit. I'm petrified of course. In the past though (when on both Xanax, then Ativan and klonopin) my dentist always let me take the sedative an hour before coming to keep me calm. Not this time. So I'm petrified and asked why not you let me take it when I was taking 8 mg of Xanax before??? I only take 2 or 3 mg Valium in the morning. In other words this makes no sense! I even said I'd happily skip my Valium. It's because it's Valium and the long half life is problematic. Or can be apparently. Unbelievable. So now I have to wait for the pill until I get there. My dentist won't budge. But I'm allowed to take my Valium in fact I'm supposed to so he can adjust the sedation as needed. And it won't interfere with my taper. I'm not getting knocked out. Just sedation. But he's done his research too in fairness. He just wants me safe and sound there before he gives me the halcion. My daughter works with a dentist. Several. They'd all let me be pre sedated as well on the other benzos but not on Valium. Go figure. Lol I think it's a curse! But I'm really petrified so it's not a joke. Neither is the pain of this tooth. B

 

You got lucky with your Dr.s, there are good ones out there. Some of the younger Dr.s I've run across seem much more wary of Benzos which is refreshing.

 

My good friend is a young ER doctor and he was told by his superiors that if he didn't give out a benzo/opiate when the patient asked for it, it was "bad medicine" on his part....... He still rarely gives them out, even though Harvard told him to. Also when I got below 1 mg of klonopin I slowed down my taper to a snail's pace and it was even only 5% every 14 days at the beginning~~6.5 mg of the evil K. B: I just had a root canal. Blah. You in line for one?