Coffee... does it speed up healing time?

[[li...]]

I have searched for coffee on the forum and have found several buddies talking about the idea of coffee upregulating GABA receptors and possibly leading to earlier healing times. There was a study on rats that demonstrated these findings (of caffeine upregulating the receptors). I'll look around to find the link.

 

In theory it seems like it should work, but I was wondering if anyone in the forum could comment on whether they drank coffee during recovery and if they believe it might have helped with their recovery.

 

I am 27 months out and as I posted the other day, my major lingering symptoms are just severe exercise intolerance, alcohol intolerance, and hormonal issues. Of course I still have the situational increased anxiety and other things like heat intolerance but for sure the major/more pesky ones are the exercise and alcohol. I'm wondering if those are results of downregulated receptors or if they are just a result of a struggling/unhealed CNS.. or is a struggling CNS a result of downregulated receptors? I know nothing about this clearly lol but again just wondering how many people out there felt like coffee might have helped.

[[li...]]

Link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3437321/

[[Te...]]

I would love to drink coffee on a regular basis, but it's caused a lot of anxiety. That's the only reason I stay away from it most of the time. At times I can't stand the lethargy and tiredness, and take a chance on drinking it. I think I'm handling it much better than in the past, however. There have been times when even one gulp of coffee left me wired and anxious for the entire day because the feeling would "grow," instead of subside. There are people on BB who have benefited from it; it clears cog fog and helps people to think more clearly.

 

I would say try a little of it and see how you feel. That's the only way you'll find out!

[[dr...]]

I believe that study used what would equate to an insane amount of coffee for a human.  That being said, coffee(even decaf) revved me like crazy until recently and now I can drink it with very few issues in the last month. I'm 33 months off and find it helps clear my mind and gets me going in the am.  If you dont get revving of symptoms with coffee I don't see any downside so I'd give it a shot to see if it helps.  If it doesn't it'll be out of your system soon enough.

Like you, I still suffer from exercise intolerance which is extremely frustrating.  Good luck

[[li...]]

Yea I am not a coffee drinker regardless; I wouldn't drink it because I like it. I would drink it solely to upregulate those stubborn suckers in my head lol. I tried some this morning and certainly was a little amped up but if it was benefiting me in the long run, I could tolerate it. I don't know if I could try insane quantities, as the rats did! Thanks for pointing that out, @drew28. Sorry to hear you are still having the exercise intolerance. That one has been the worst. I am (well was) a healthy person and enjoyed working out so I have really, really been struggling with that one... and endlessly searching for a way to improve it. No such luck yet, I'm afraid. I get set backs every time I try. I'm only 29 and can't do minimal exercise without a terrible week after to remind me that I'm not really like a 29-year-old anymore.

 

 

[[Kr...]]

After 5 months of no tea or coffee, I started drinking tea and decaf, althought not often.  I'm almost 8 months out now, and have a coffee a day, although I can only stomach instant.    The perculated/barista coffee makes me spacey.    I didn't read the study.  I seem to have insomnia once or twice a week at the moment (I need to both get exercise, and go to bed before 1100pm to get a restful night i.e. restful in that if I wake I can get back to sleep).

 

[[be...]]

Even is I drink a half cup of decaf at 7 am, I'm wide wake all night. And too bad as I love the taste of it. I don't think I'll ever be able to drink it again.

[[ve...]]

It's not going to help healing time.

 

Your understanding of what causes post-acute/protracted benzo withdrawal and the mechanisms at play is flawed. Check our Perserverence's posts in the stickies up top, she does a good job of laying it all out.

 

Trying to upregulate GABA, unfortunately, ain't gonna do ya a lick of good.

 

Best wishes,

v

[[wa...]]

Well I pounced on this thread like a cat on a mouse (tee hee) because of my pathological attachment to coffee.  I tapered off of it at the beginning of my Z drug taper because my w/d was so difficult I felt being off of caffeine would make the process easier.  But the cog fog and AM depression drove me back and I have been indulging in it ever since.

 

I asked Baylissa F. if my dependency on my morning jo would make my recovery worse and she said she thought it would only interfere with healing in that it slows it down.  She said her opinion is formulated from just speaking to hundreds of w/d folks over the years.  So I keep indulging knowing that I might feel better sooner if I quit again but the AM is still just too horrible without it.  WBB

[[Fl...]]

Well I pounced on this thread like a cat on a mouse (tee hee) because of my pathological attachment to coffee.  I tapered off of it at the beginning of my Z drug taper because my w/d was so difficult I felt being off of caffeine would make the process easier.  But the cog fog and AM depression drove me back and I have been indulging in it ever since.

 

I asked Baylissa F. if my dependency on my morning jo would make my recovery worse and she said she thought it would only interfere with healing in that it slows it down.  She said her opinion is formulated from just speaking to hundreds of w/d folks over the years.  So I keep indulging knowing that I might feel better sooner if I quit again but the AM is still just too horrible without it.  WBB

 

I wonder how anyone would even go about formulating an opinion like that. I have been around the support community for 6 years and I haven't noticed any kind of connection caffeine has to healing. My guess is that caffeine is just one of those things that gets labeled as "bad". A few people start claiming that it hurts recovery and before you know it it's repeated enough times that it starts to become accepted as fact.

 

I seriously doubt that caffeine effects recovery at all, for better or worse. If it ramps up your anxiety or causes other symptoms to flare, by all means, stop consuming it. In my case though I tried cutting it out a couple of times along the way and quickly realized that caffeine was helping me to function cognitively.

[[wa...]]

Well I pounced on this thread like a cat on a mouse (tee hee) because of my pathological attachment to coffee.  I tapered off of it at the beginning of my Z drug taper because my w/d was so difficult I felt being off of caffeine would make the process easier.  But the cog fog and AM depression drove me back and I have been indulging in it ever since.

 

I asked Baylissa F. if my dependency on my morning jo would make my recovery worse and she said she thought it would only interfere with healing in that it slows it down.  She said her opinion is formulated from just speaking to hundreds of w/d folks over the years.  So I keep indulging knowing that I might feel better sooner if I quit again but the AM is still just too horrible without it.  WBB

Well, she did not say I could not recover or heal while drinking coffee.  That's what I came away with.  WBB

 

I wonder how anyone would even go about formulating an opinion like that. I have been around the support community for 6 years and I haven't noticed any kind of connection caffeine has to healing. My guess is that caffeine is just one of those things that gets labeled as "bad". A few people start claiming that it hurts recovery and before you know it it's repeated enough times that it starts to become accepted as fact.

 

I seriously doubt that caffeine effects recovery at all, for better or worse. If it ramps up your anxiety or causes other symptoms to flare, by all means, stop consuming it. In my case though I tried cutting it out a couple of times along the way and quickly realized that caffeine was helping me to function cognitively.

[[Fl...]]

Well, she did not say I could not recover or heal while drinking coffee.  That's what I came away with.  WBB

 

I just don't know what basis anyone would have for even claiming that it could interfere with healing in any way. I can understand how someone might believe that alcohol, for example interferes with healing due to the fact that it acts in a similar manner to benzos, but even with alcohol no one really knows. It just seems like a stretch to think that caffeine would cause issues with healing and I am not aware of any kind of evidence to support that idea.

[[wa...]]

Right, no one really knows.  It is equivocal.  Common sense works for me.  Anything that hammers your CNS  - and messes with your adrenals might interfere with the length of time it takes to feel better.  I am recovering from last-word-itis and going to bed.  I will probably have some coffee in the AM.  Cheers.  WBB

[[Bi...]]

Well, she did not say I could not recover or heal while drinking coffee.  That's what I came away with.  WBB

 

I just don't know what basis anyone would have for even claiming that it could interfere with healing in any way. I can understand how someone might believe that alcohol, for example interferes with healing due to the fact that it acts in a similar manner to benzos, but even with alcohol no one really knows. It just seems like a stretch to think that caffeine would cause issues with healing and I am not aware of any kind of evidence to support that idea.

 

Chronic ingestion of caffeine -- increased -- the density of cortical benzodiazepine-binding sites associated with GABAA receptors is increased by 65%

 

REF: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8242688

[[be...]]

Well I pounced on this thread like a cat on a mouse (tee hee) because of my pathological attachment to coffee.  I tapered off of it at the beginning of my Z drug taper because my w/d was so difficult I felt being off of caffeine would make the process easier.  But the cog fog and AM depression drove me back and I have been indulging in it ever since.

 

I asked Baylissa F. if my dependency on my morning jo would make my recovery worse and she said she thought it would only interfere with healing in that it slows it down.  She said her opinion is formulated from just speaking to hundreds of w/d folks over the years.  So I keep indulging knowing that I might feel better sooner if I quit again but the AM is still just too horrible without it.  WBB

 

Aw WBB, Be tough!!

[[Fl...]]

Chronic ingestion of caffeine -- increased -- the density of cortical benzodiazepine-binding sites associated with GABAA receptors is increased by 65%

 

REF: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8242688

 

I am not even going to pretend to really be able to understand that, but we don't even really know why benzos make people sick so a study about caffeine withdrawal in mice that mentions gaba receptors doesn't prove anything about caffeine interfering with benzo healing.

 

My guess is that gaba is just the tip of the iceberg and even if we could snap our fingers and magically heal our gaba receptors we would still have other systems in the body that need to heal. 

[[Bi...]]

Chronic ingestion of caffeine -- increased -- the density of cortical benzodiazepine-binding sites associated with GABAA receptors is increased by 65%

 

REF: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8242688

 

I am not even going to pretend to really be able to understand that, but we don't even really know why benzos make people sick so a study about caffeine withdrawal in mice that mentions gaba receptors doesn't prove anything about caffeine interfering with benzo healing.

 

My guess is that gaba is just the tip of the iceberg and even if we could snap our fingers and magically heal our gaba receptors we would still have other systems in the body that need to heal.

 

True FloridaGuy, Gaba is only one part and Dopamine plus Serotonin are other big keys to the puzzle without getting too complex on the topic. 

 

As far as this study it's more about mice growing new gabaA receptors in response to ingesting high doses of caffeine daily.

 

The whole mid brain complex gets hit as had as the cerebellum and that's where all the long term healing takes place and probably where the most damage is done for the protracted folks. 

 

No doubt however that withdrawal symptoms are still more way complex than just the absence of gabaA receptors.

 

 

[[La...]]

I just posted these two more recent studies (i.e. from 2004 and 2015) that look at GABA and caffeine, and asked if anyone could weigh in, but so far, there have been no responses. Perhaps they could shed some light on some of the questions posed.

 

http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/15246859 

 

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/np/2016/1239629/ 

 

Like the other study, however, these ones involve rats, and as a result, they may or may not reflect what happens in human beings.

 

Personally, my guess is that a little caffeine likely won't make a great difference either way.

[[li...]]

My experience, it's just mine.

 

During a real taper (once temazepam, the rest clonazepam):  coffee affects hormones, possibly the HPA axis, it may affect the circadian rhythm, it affects adenosine (benzodiazepines are weak adenosine reuptake inhibitors), possibly an effect on acetylcholine may matter, and guessing, maybe caffeine is proconvulsant/releases glutamate ?

 

Coffee also contains other substances that are 'psychoactive'.

 

I forgot: coffee affects glycine.

[[La...]]

The question is: Do small amounts of caffeine -- say, the amount that any of us would get in a few cups of tea or coffee, or a square of dark chocolate -- affect our withdrawal either way? I highly doubt it.

 

Still, I do hope that someone can interpret one or both of the studies I posted. The previous study that keeps being re-posted is from 1993. Surely there's more updated info than that.

[[wa...]]

My experience, it's just mine.

 

During a real taper (once temazepam, the rest clonazepam):  coffee affects hormones, possibly the HPA axis, it may affect the circadian rhythm, it affects adenosine (benzodiazepines are weak adenosine reuptake inhibitors), possibly an effect on acetylcholine may matter, and guessing, maybe caffeine is proconvulsant/releases glutamate ?

 

Coffee also contains other substances that are 'psychoactive'.

What was your experience?

 

I know Lapis2 -- I keep getting an image in my head of mice with little Swiss sweaters on, drinking coffee at tables and smoking cigarettes. W

[[La...]]

See, having read many, many abstracts and studies, I've started to have elaborate ideas about the little mice who are made to do the "Forced Swim Test" in order to test things like Prozac and other antidepressants. The poor little micey-poos would be put into the tank and then, if they couldn't do the front crawl all the way to the other side, they'd be drowning and calling for help. "Hayulp, hayulp!" Then, perhaps someone would, finally, save them from certain death and offer them a dose of Prozac, which they'd gladly take if it meant they could get out of the water and dry off.

 

But no one -- NO ONE -- would ask them if they'd had a difficult day at the office. And no one would ask if they were sad about their relationships with with their spouses (be it Mr. or Mrs Mousey-Poo, who might be having a little mousey affair on the side). Of course, they were depressed! And why not offer the little mousey-poos a little CBT or a chance to run outside in the fresh air instead of giving them Prozac??!!

 

I'll never understand.

 

:D

 

P.S. On a slightly more serious note, I did speak to a pharmacist about a study whose results I wanted to understand. It had to do with acetaminophen and a possible effect on GABA. The pharmacist said that studies on mice or rats, in general, are considered to be preliminary, and there would need to be much more study done -- including studies on people -- before coming up with usable results for us. Aha! Right. Got it. So, these caffeine studies -- while interesting -- probably don't tell us anything solid about the effects on humans. I think, for now, it's safe to have that cuppa hot liquid -- be it coffee or tea. And hey, a square of dark chocolate might just add a little bit of much-needed joy!

 

[[be...]]

My problem is far to many squares of dark chocolate...........

[[Bi...]]

My problem is far to many squares of dark chocolate...........

:laugh:

[[La...]]

My problem is far to many squares of dark chocolate...........

 

Are they making you happy?  :)