Tapering mechanics

[[li...]]

I'm sorry, I don't really know where to put it this is where it will be ...

 

Recently I took some diazepam to see how I would react. It is short acting, very different and accumulates excessively.

 

I just can't do a normal taper (clonazepam) because that requires an olympic effort. I'm not healthy. (healthcare system, the worst in the world, it managed to make me sick/ill beyond the benzo)

 

Even if I manage to switch (can't do a crossover) to diazepam I'd have to deal with that accumulated benzo. It's not 'you're fine, it's just the benzo'. There is no 'normal' schedule. I'd have to stop taking it at some point, and it wouldn't be a normal taper. Then I'd still have to deal with the flood of diazepam/desmethyldiazepam for two months after the last dose.

 

If anyone, anyone, has a suggestion ....

 

That lorazepam was way too 'addictive' and my health really crashed.

Phenobarbital ? Doctors in this country don't know how to use it.

Bromazepam was short acting. It accumulates in fatty tissue like diazepam. Actually, at this point I don't know if bromazepam was really worse than diazepam ...

 

(Librium is basically a weak version of diazepam, Tranxene is less messy than diazepam but much weaker and shorter acting)

 

Anything, anything (besides a cold turkey) ? Anything ?

 

Reg Peart (passed away) mentions gabapentin for a detox/taper but I'm skeptical at best ... http://www.benzosupport.org/neurontin_and_withdrawal.htm

 

That stupid diazepam ...

[Guest [ch...]]

Many of us have tapered diazepam. It has a half-life of about 100 to 200 hours, due to the fact that its metabolites are also benzos. This is generally considered an advantage for tapering since it will smooth out the decline in blood levels as you taper.

 

I'm not sure where you are getting your information about it accumulating in the body. Any accumulation is not enough to be clinically significant. If you stop taking diazepam, within about a week your blood levels will drop to negligible, and if you were dependent you will feel withdrawal effects. There's no "flood" of accumulated diazepam back into your bloodstream.

 

 

[[li...]]

I meant that I can't taper by the book, aka 'Ashton'.

 

I'd probably crash at some point, which would likely coincide with not sleeping.

Clonazepam and diazepam, very different drugs. So many complications.

 

'If you stop taking diazepam, within about a week your blood levels will drop to negligible'

 

No. While the half life is 1-2 days, once it accumulates in fat cells (up to 5-8 times the daily dose) it will really take longer than a week to get it out of the body. And the diazepam is converted into the desmethyldiazepam ... I don't recall the source, supposedly after long term use (especially at higher doses) the drug will be out of the body after about two months. No guarantees.

 

Also, I meant that both the diazepam in the body and what you swallow each day each do 'something'. Again, I can't follow a classic Ashton taper because 'it's not just the benzo, I'm not fine' even aside from these being very different drugs.

 

As a side note, anyone (who was on clonazepam) got tinnitus from switching to diazepam ?

 

And as a side note, could I taper by dose/intake, ignoring accumulated diazepam and metabolites ?

I can't do a symptom based taper (diazepam), since I'd be having symptoms from clonazepam, diazepam, various health problems, insomnia etc ...

(I don't want to spam too much)

[[Lo...]]

[[li...]]

LF2015,

 

I appreciate that (quick look the the guide). But really, up to a point the clonazepam is toxic with all sort of problematic issues. Then there are other health issues, and they all interact. (local healthcare system is crap)

And no, it was not a calming pill or a psychiatric drug.

 

You can't always just go on. And the 'baseline' isn't always 'fine'. You really don't run into problems like these with antipsychotics ...

 

 

[[li...]]

And it doesn't belong in this thread  but I can't open too many ... many people are mostly fine after a C/T ... but what if you're extremely kindled/messed up ? Would you still heal ... I didn't have all that before the lorazepam.

[[Lo...]]

I think what really struck me about the video is how little we know about all these psychotropic chemicals. Maybe it doesn't belong to this thread, who knows. I guess there must have been something in your thread that resonated with my situation, or maybe there's something in your situation that I may be subconsciously picking up that reminds me of my situation.

 

I never took clonazepam, but I can certainly relate to you on the horrors of lorazepam. I wasn't even taking it every day before I sensed something was horribly wrong and didn't know why. Tried to stop it many times and didn't understand why I would stay so anxious and feel so weak. And yes, most doctors here are so reluctant to prescribe diazepam, and I literally had to prove my case. Everyone wanted to put me on klonopin, pretty much.

 

I am not sure what I am doing is the right way to do it. The Ashton taper was too quick for me and those 10% reductions were impossible. Life gets impossible while tapering off of these. I can barely leave the house these days. Maybe that's why I relate to the guy. I've never taken antipsychotics or lithium, but that feeling of being a normal, functional person and being turned into and treated like a mental patient is one of the most dehumanizing experiences a person can go through. That much I know. Yes, I agree, this is isn't like Prozac which you could just take a steady dose of and be functional. I am not arguing that Prozac is the solution, but if that remained the only medications I was taking, I wouldn't be on this forum, and would be living my life instead. Maybe it wouldn't be a great life, but it would still be a life worth living.

 

I had absolutely no tolerance to benzos before I took lorazepam. It provided more than 10 hours of relief, and now, it just keeps me from going to the hospital with stroke level blood pressure.

 

And I was on situation where I was completely unstable on lorazepam, and staying on the same dose wasn't possible for me. Had to drop it down because I felt sicker and sicker.

[[li...]]

For me, clonazepam is unique.

 

While lorazepam is harsh, the short acting benzos are generally faster to discontinue. One doc (not local) doesn't like clonazepam for its protracted W/D syndrome ...

 

Assuming you're healthy, half of the problem with clonazepam is the half life. It can easily take 6 months. And lots of things can go wrong.

 

Clonazepam being unique, let's see: local action on gabab, some unique kind of compensation for that in the thalamus, major effects on acetylcholine and serotonin, in my case partly paradoxical. And just the strongest benzo based on Ki values, that coupled with a long duration of action and half life ... The worst drug in the world.

 

Extremely high affinity for subunits alpha2 and alpha 3. I wonder about the anticonvulsant equivalent of clonazepam to diazepam ?

 

Anyway, I really want/need a drug to get off, diazepam is so messy.

[[Lo...]]

Do you think Clonazepam increases glutamate receptor action more quickly and more dangerously than other benzodiazepines do? I was reading about NDMA and AMPA receptors being oversensitive during this process, and due to our GABA receptors not working properly, the excess Glutamate is causing so many problems, and probably the reason why people get protracted in the first place. I'm just speculating.

[[li...]]

Impossible to say. These things may be more obvious if you dose once a day, like me.

 

I think that if dopamine/acetylcholine gets disrupted, with interdose withdrawal, tolerance withdrawal things can get more extreme. So possibly, yes. But that doesn't explain why diazepam causes tinnitus (not sure if it's common).

 

Anyway, does anyone see anything in switching clonazepam to gabapentin (Lyrica) as mentioned in Reg Peart's link ? I'm rather kindled, and diazepam is so messy.