CONFUSING QUESTION ABOUT VALIUM

[[ho...]]

Ok I understand it takes about a month for Valium to build up in your system. I currently take 20 Mgs which I have taken for 3 months. So I'm saturated with that amount, if I add more say another .5 Mgs would it take another month for that .5 to fully build up in my body? The reason I'm asking is because I'm considering crossing over from my 2.5 klonopin to Valium, but want to titrate the klonopin. Would it make more sense to take the Valium BEFORE I started the titration so it would build up as I go down instead of after the klonopin is out? Am I making sense? I have gone from 6-7 klonopin to 2.5 klonopin in 10 months, in two cuts and I added 20 Mgs Valium on the last cut. I feel the Valium, my heart is lower than it has been since I did my first cut over a year ago. I do not feel the klonopin anymore, but the Valium I feel and helps me to be able to walk around and stand for longer as my heart has been the first issue since my first 50% cut in December 2015. I have been holding for three months now. The klonopin has got to go, but since I have done such drastic cuts in such a short period I believe adding the Valium as I titrate the klonopin would help me. Anyone have any insight?

[[bu...]]

For most folks, 1bout 7-10 days is the "saturation" time".  And that not only applies to initial dosing, it will apply to any changes in dose, up or down.  And there is a mathematical construct based on half-life that supports that time frame.

 

I would strongly  recommend fully crossing over before starting to taper.

[[ho...]]

For most folks, 1bout 7-10 days is the "saturation" time".  And that not only applies to initial dosing, it will apply to any changes in dose, up or down.  And there is a mathematical construct based on half-life that supports that time frame.

 

I would strongly  recommend fully crossing over before starting to taper.

so if I add valium it will take 7-10 days for it to reach full saturation for the new dose? To do a full crossover I would have to taper, and the only way to do that is very slowly as how I've messed up and done the Gigantic cuts in a very short period of time. So you think liquid titrate the k and add the v as I go? Thank you

[[ho...]]

For most folks, 1bout 7-10 days is the "saturation" time".  And that not only applies to initial dosing, it will apply to any changes in dose, up or down.  And there is a mathematical construct based on half-life that supports that time frame.

 

I would strongly  recommend fully crossing over before starting to taper.

so if I add valium it will take 7-10 days for it to reach full saturation for the new dose? To do a full crossover I would have to taper, and the only way to do that is very slowly as how I've messed up and done the Gigantic cuts in a very short period of time. So you think liquid titrate the k and add the v as I go? Thank you

basically what I'm saying is do the crossover but do it slowly with titration. Because there's no way I can do any 10% or whatever cuts again. I only have 1 mg pills.

[[Na...]]

I think what Builder is saying is to get completely crossed over to V BEFORE any more cuts to the K.

So you would add say 10mgs for example to your daily dose of V then in 7-10 days reduce the K by .5 and so on til your completely crossed to V.

[[bu...]]

I think what Builder is saying is to get completely crossed over to V BEFORE any more cuts to the K.

So you would add say 10mgs for example to your daily dose of V then in 7-10 days reduce the K by .5 and so on til your completely crossed to V.

 

:thumbsup:

[[ho...]]

I think what Builder is saying is to get completely crossed over to V BEFORE any more cuts to the K.

So you would add say 10mgs for example to your daily dose of V then in 7-10 days reduce the K by .5 and so on til your completely crossed to V.

sorry benzo brain horrid today. OK so add the v FIRST then wait then take out some k. The Ashton protocol chart confuses me as she says replace a certain dose with the valium equivalent. To me that seems like you would be feeling immediate withdrawal from the k until the v catches up. Maybe im just interrupting it wrong. But what y'all are saying makes more sense.

[[ho...]]

Also as I'm getting lower in the k, the percentage cuts would be more this concerns me.   also I've read a lot of people don't have to cross to the full 1k equals 20 mgs valium equivalent. Is that true? My last drop overnight I went from 3-4 to 2.5 and added two 10 mgs valium. So basically at 3.5 valium equivalent according to Ashton. Maybe still symptomatic because I did it overnight? Read on Ashton crossovers don't work because people do them too fast. Don't know why if I'm still at the "valium equivalent" symptomatic after 3 months.   maybe from going from 6-7 to 3-4 overnight in December 2015? I don't know.

[[ho...]]

I think what Builder is saying is to get completely crossed over to V BEFORE any more cuts to the K.

So you would add say 10mgs for example to your daily dose of V then in 7-10 days reduce the K by .5 and so on til your completely crossed to V.

 

:thumbsup:

so best approach for EACH DOSE cross to v first then wait the cut the k? Am I understanding right? Brain fried.

[[ho...]]

I think what Builder is saying is to get completely crossed over to V BEFORE any more cuts to the K.

So you would add say 10mgs for example to your daily dose of V then in 7-10 days reduce the K by .5 and so on til your completely crossed to V.

Navita65, is that how your wife did her crossover? Was it hard for her? How is her taper from v going? Those. 5 cuts scare me, as when I get to 1 mg. 5 would be 50%. Even though it's covered by the valium totally different drug.

[[Na...]]

Yes, this will give the V a chance to build up somewhat and act as a cushion for your drop in the K. Although K has a decent half life as well, so I would think the C/O to V should be fairly smooth.

 

Keep in mind the equivalent charts Ashton has documented are a reference point only. Each individual is different and the doses may vary. But in general it's a good reference to go by.

 

My wife was directly switched over at the onset of all this unfortunately. It was not pretty. So needless to say she went through hell crossing over to V from Ativan

[[bu...]]

OK, a little more explanation for clarification...

 

The objective is to gradually substitute the shorter half-life benzo (K) for the equivalent amount of the longer half-life benzo (V).  You need to slowly lower the K while increasing the V.  The goal is to maintain the same equivalent dose, until you have fully crossed.

 

So yes, you taper the K as you add V, but you do not try to reduce your total equivalent dose.

 

Hopefully, by the time you have reached to equivalent dose of V, you will have tapered to zero K.  You want to avoid increasing your equivalent benzo dose.

 

For example, if you started at 1mg K, by the time you reach 20mg V, you should be at zero K.

[[ho...]]

OK, a little more explanation for clarification...

 

The objective is to gradually substitute the shorter half-life benzo (K) for the equivalent amount of the longer half-life benzo (V).  You need to slowly lower the K while increasing the V.  The goal is to maintain the same equivalent dose, until you have fully crossed.

 

So yes, you taper the K as you add V, but you do not try to reduce your total equivalent dose.

 

Hopefully, by the time you have reached to equivalent dose of V, you will have tapered to zero K.  You want to avoid increasing your equivalent benzo dose.

 

For example, if you started at 1mg K, by the time you reach 20mg V, you should be at zero K.

ok couple questions:

1. Last drop i did,  was from 3-4 to 2.5 k and 20 mgs valium however I did it overnight. Could this explain why I'm not stabilized on this dose after three months? (I was averaging 3.5 k before drop so I'm on 70 mgs equivalent including k and v) but did drop from 6-7 to 3-4 overnight ten months before as well.

2. So just to clarify each increase dose of Valium takes 7-10 days to "saturate" or whatever the correct word is even though I'm only on 20 mgs.

3. I only have access to 50 mgs a day valium and already on 20 however have a lot hoarded because I've only been taking two a day. So I would probably end up being stuck on. 5 or 1 mg klonopin.

4. I'm struggling with the fact that I would have to taper off such a massive dose of Valium. Wondering if time would be the same since I'm struggling so hard with the k and probably tolerant and gonna be hell all the way down.

5.very concerned about making the bigger cuts to the K as it gets lower.

6. I've read some people don't have to get to the full 1=20 equivalent is that true?

7. If I'm on 2.5 k example, add 10 mgs v wait ten days take out. 5 k  then on 2.0 k add 10 mgs v wait take out.  5 mgs  those cuts getting bigger...

[[ho...]]

Yes, this will give the V a chance to build up somewhat and act as a cushion for your drop in the K. Although K has a decent half life as well, so I would think the C/O to V should be fairly smooth.

 

Keep in mind the equivalent charts Ashton has documented are a reference point only. Each individual is different and the doses may vary. But in general it's a good reference to go by.

 

My wife was directly switched over at the onset of all this unfortunately. It was not pretty. So needless to say she went through hell crossing over to V from Ativan

I'm sorry about your wife. I added my valium overnight as well and have been wondering why I haven't stabilized in 3 months. Because I'm on same valium equivalent. How is she tapering the valium?

[[ho...]]

This link I was reading the other night explains why valium works for crossover and she particularly talks about klonopin and she said that there's no "receptors just for klonopin" but I could see how you would feel those cuts as I've heard klonopin holds on for dear life.

http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashvtaper.htm

[[ho...]]

OK, a little more explanation for clarification...

 

The objective is to gradually substitute the shorter half-life benzo (K) for the equivalent amount of the longer half-life benzo (V).  You need to slowly lower the K while increasing the V.  The goal is to maintain the same equivalent dose, until you have fully crossed.

 

So yes, you taper the K as you add V, but you do not try to reduce your total equivalent dose.

 

Hopefully, by the time you have reached to equivalent dose of V, you will have tapered to zero K.  You want to avoid increasing your equivalent benzo dose.

 

For example, if you started at 1mg K, by the time you reach 20mg V, you should be at zero K.

just reread this,  so do not increase equivalent dose, so do not add v first then cut the k? If you added v first then waited and added k you would temporarily increase the equivalent dose.

[[bu...]]

 

  ok couple questions:

1. Last drop i did,  was from 3-4 to 2.5 k and 20 mgs valium however I did it overnight. Could this explain why I'm not stabilized on this dose after three months? (I was averaging 3.5 k before drop so I'm on 70 mgs equivalent including k and v) but did drop from 6-7 to 3-4 overnight ten months before as well.

2. So just to clarify each increase dose of Valium takes 7-10 days to "saturate" or whatever the correct word is even though I'm only on 20 mgs.

3. I only have access to 50 mgs a day valium and already on 20 however have a lot hoarded because I've only been taking two a day. So I would probably end up being stuck on. 5 or 1 mg klonopin.

4. I'm struggling with the fact that I would have to taper off such a massive dose of Valium. Wondering if time would be the same since I'm struggling so hard with the k and probably tolerant and gonna be hell all the way down.

5.very concerned about making the bigger cuts to the K as it gets lower.

6. I've read some people don't have to get to the full 1=20 equivalent is that true?

7. If I'm on 2.5 k example, add 10 mgs v wait ten days take out. 5 k  then on 2.0 k add 10 mgs v wait take out.  5 mgs  those cuts getting bigger...

 

I'm not an expert on the mechanics and schedules of crossovers, but I do understand the concept, so I'll give you some answers as best I can.

 

You cannot simultaneously add 20mg V, and drop 1 mg K.  Ideally, you want to be dropping the K at about the same rate that the V is accumulating.  I can't give you a detailed transition, but I think Ashton does.

 

Unfortunately, there are no accurate benzo-to-benzo equivalents.  Individual metabolisms differ.  And every benzo has 5 therapeutic effects, but some are more effective in certain ways, and less effective in others.  So at best, the 1mgK=20mgV is only a rough approximation.

 

Again, while you shouldn't try to reduce your total equivalent benzo dose during the crossover, you definitely want to avoid increasing your total effective dose.

 

I think its like any taper...let your sxs be a guide, and don't get hung up trying to follow a schedule or a formula.

[[ho...]]

 

  ok couple questions:

1. Last drop i did,  was from 3-4 to 2.5 k and 20 mgs valium however I did it overnight. Could this explain why I'm not stabilized on this dose after three months? (I was averaging 3.5 k before drop so I'm on 70 mgs equivalent including k and v) but did drop from 6-7 to 3-4 overnight ten months before as well.

2. So just to clarify each increase dose of Valium takes 7-10 days to "saturate" or whatever the correct word is even though I'm only on 20 mgs.

3. I only have access to 50 mgs a day valium and already on 20 however have a lot hoarded because I've only been taking two a day. So I would probably end up being stuck on. 5 or 1 mg klonopin.

4. I'm struggling with the fact that I would have to taper off such a massive dose of Valium. Wondering if time would be the same since I'm struggling so hard with the k and probably tolerant and gonna be hell all the way down.

5.very concerned about making the bigger cuts to the K as it gets lower.

6. I've read some people don't have to get to the full 1=20 equivalent is that true?

7. If I'm on 2.5 k example, add 10 mgs v wait ten days take out. 5 k  then on 2.0 k add 10 mgs v wait take out.  5 mgs  those cuts getting bigger...

 

I'm not an expert on the mechanics and schedules of crossovers, but I do understand the concept, so I'll give you some answers as best I can.

 

You cannot simultaneously add 20mg V, and drop 1 mg K.  Ideally, you want to be dropping the K at about the same rate that the V is accumulating.  I can't give you a detailed transition, but I think Ashton does.

 

Unfortunately, there are no accurate benzo-to-benzo equivalents.  Individual metabolisms differ.  And every benzo has 5 therapeutic effects, but some are more effective in certain ways, and less effective in others.  So at best, the 1mgK=20mgV is only a rough approximation.

 

Again, while you shouldn't try to reduce your total equivalent benzo dose during the crossover, you definitely want to avoid increasing your total effective dose.

 

I think its like any taper...let your sxs be a guide, and don't get hung up trying to follow a schedule or a formula.

so basically like on the Ashton chart,  she takes out 10 mg equivalent k and replaces it with 10 mg V. She says wait 1-2 weeks but have been told by many it is considered very fast. OK well thank you got some thinking to do.

[[bu...]]

 

I think its like any taper...let your sxs be a guide, and don't get hung up trying to follow a schedule or a formula.

so basically like on the Ashton chart,  she takes out 10 mg equivalent k and replaces it with 10 mg V. She says wait 1-2 weeks but have been told by many it is considered very fast. OK well thank you got some thinking to do.

  I would think 1-2 weeks for the V to accumulate would be completely adequate.