Kaiser NorCal patient, Doctor won't listen re: diazepam taper!!!

[[ai...]]

I'm in a wave right now so excuse me:

 

I'm in a rehab right now, staffed by caring therapists and counselors but with no MD on sight--I am, unfortunately, more medically informed and have

(I believe) more knowledge of psychopharmacology than the staff here at the rehab, and it's unknown if I know more than my addiction psychiatrist because the appointments are short and I am afraid to insult her ego.

 

I have Kaiser Permanente (Northern California) and am stuck with an "addiction psychiatrist".. I have other problems besides BZD withdrawal (methamphetamine and alcohol use), have MOSTLY taken my BZDs as prescribed but not always, for the last 15 years. I didn't ask the doctor if she'd switch me to Valium (diazepam) to do a taper, because one of the clinic's directors (a PsyD) said, "I don't know if she's going to give you Valium" before I made the appointment.

 

I'm down to 0.25mg Klonopin b.i.d. from a baseline of 0.5.  There are advantages to coming off benzodiazepines after all this time, I do feel I was unconsciously covering up traumas from my childhood on with these drugs.  They will not put me back on maintenance, and recently, I read that maintenance wouldn't be a good idea anyway because of kindling due to titrating down - It's likely that 0.5 wouldn't relieve withdrawal symptoms or take me back to "baseline".

 

The waves and windows are unpredictable, the Doctor has me on gabapentin (which I'm scared to take, because it prevents new synaptic connections from forming in the brain, I want to be able to learn and not feel stupid all the time) for anxiety.  Does anyone here have Kaiser?  What do you do if your HMO is screwing you by not tapering according to the Ashton manual or doesn't listen to you?

 

Most of my concerns have been pooh-poohed by them and I'm too scared to stick up for myself.  I'm frightened out of my mind and told little things like "taking a walk" will help but all I can do sometimes is pace. I don't shower regularly and can't even pick up my prescriptions because I've had panic attacks leaving the facility...

 

I do believe in 12-step recovery however I have yet to meet someone who's endured this in "the rooms" personally. It seems that people can empathize but, so far, I haven't found someone who, in person, has said, "yep, I've been through that and I can help you".

 

So sorry this is rambling... I needed to get this out to people who can understand.

 

[[me...]]

Hi,

 

What you're going through is not unusual, it's typical, actually, and it's one reason why most members here plan their own tapers and do it at home.  I've been through a hospital detox in the past, it was nothing but a cold turkey, really.  You're not going to convince them, unfortunately.  The kind of program you're in, like AA, was designed for alcoholics, not benzo users.

 

[[Ca...]]

Yes, what megan said...

i did a rapid 2day, or more a C/T detox on another med, which left me with a big mess to clean up...

Tbh, i think a lot of the strength to do a slow benzo taper comes from being the one in controll of it...

That, and finding a good understanding Dr... oh, and bb (here), will help no end too...

 

Glad u posted...

Best wishes...

[[ai...]]

Hi,

 

What you're going through is not unusual, it's typical, actually, and it's one reason why most members here plan their own tapers and do it at home.  I've been through a hospital detox in the past, it was nothing but a cold turkey, really.  You're not going to convince them, unfortunately.  The kind of program you're in, like AA, was designed for alcoholics, not benzo users.

 

 

I can't do this. I am stuck with the HMO (Kaiser) and within their CDRP "addiction psychiatry" department. I can't afford an outside provider, and Kaiser won't cover outside prescriptions (even though Valium is a cheap cash prescription).  They must be convinced.  Keep in mind, I am not in a 12-step rehab, it is a rehab for dually-diagnosed patients and there is very little 12-step in here, it's mostly CBT/DBT/mindfulness .... We can leave to go to doctor's appointments.

 

I ... I am hitting a brick wall with them.  Can someone tell me why so-called addiction psychiatrists don't know to taper with Valium?  Do they think we're imagining our symptoms?  The people here at the rehab are kind, but they are not medical and they can only offer emotional support and coping skills that sometimes DO NOT WORK and they don't seem to get the severity of benzo withdrawal, I mean, how could they?  I've asked if they ever had someone on BZDs for 15 years come through this place and the answer is no.

 

It's a shame this is so unknown in the medical community, and on top of that, I have NO ONE willing to advocate for me at the next appointment, I was hoping I could show the material to my Dad, when he came to visit today. who's supportive of me getting off Klonopin, but he is so ignorant, he told me "What do you mean you have to take another drug to get off this drug?"  He doesn't understand that Valium's in the same class and it's simply switching to a drug that's easier to taper....  He looked clueless and was not interested in reading the material I printed out for him.

 

The very people who are supposed to be helping me with this -- WHY are they so resistant to the Ashton method?

 

Has anyone found in person support for tapering? 

 

I'm a mess. I fantasize about things I shouldn't, like drinking alcohol, starting to do heroin again (which was a piece of cake to stop compared to this, I last did that December of 2015) or giving up altogether. **NOTE: It's just a fantasy. I won't act on it.

 

I don't have much hope... I spend most of my days snapping at people in here (even though that's not in my nature), quiet, or occasionally during windows, feeling somewhat okay.  What I say and think during waves is not what I say and think during windows, and even reviewing my journals, written during window times, I don't believe what I wrote even though I remember writing it - it seems like BS.

 

 

[[me...]]

Hi again,

 

All this is very unfortunate and frustrating of course, but as I said before, it's just the way it is.  I don't know exactly why the medical world is so ignorant about the realities of benzo withdrawal - they just are.  Rather than try to fight them - which will probably just result in more pain and frustration and in you being labeled a difficult patient with lots of problems and disorders, it would be best to do this on your own if possible, in my opinion.  This forum can help you.

 

The whole purpose of this forum is to help people like you taper and suport your healing after tapering, which can a months long process.  It's not perfect, but this forum is unique, there's nothing else like it currently online, and certainly not in "real life."

[[lo...]]

my pdoc said no to valium. 'too addictive' lol. (he also said I can taper 1mg K in 4 weeks)

I asked him finally to call compounding pharma to prep clonazepam liquid and tapered the last mile that way.

there is no problem tapering directly K and many including me did it successfully.

[[Ca...]]

A huge part of it is finding that right Dr... Mine also thought i could taper off at like 5V every 2weeks...

But as soon as i said what was happening she said as slow as i need...

She also mentioned another patient that was having similar problems. So i told her about Ashton and also BB... she made a note, and later told me she had looked at both!!! -she has also read resurch papers and studies on opiate/digestive stuff before, that i gave her the link to...

Yes, we have a long history due to accident stuff, BUT good Drs are out there... but can take some finding... -worth the effort imho... (try not to ask for meds the first visit, if u can help it) -my question would probably go... -are u familiar with current and emerging benzo tapering techniques? -yes or no...  ur foot is in the door...

 

I think the only person that will understand a benzo taper is someone that has been there themselves... -but that doesnt mean that people cant trust what u are saying...

 

And also, as megan mentioned too, -try to avoid being labled... -i have non compliant written all over my records!!! Lol, but they are the ones that gave me a wheelchair for my birthday, so i could go outside to smoke... lol (sorry.. -my 2yrs in hospital were a blast... -the stories i could tell)

 

So yeah, i guess u got some choices to look at... personally, i cant see any good coming from a forced taper that is too fast... someone has to pay the ferry man... -its either time or pain... unless u are one of the lucky ones that can taper fast n hard...

 

Best wishes...

 

[[ai...]]

Hi again,

 

All this is very unfortunate and frustrating of course, but as I said before, it's just the way it is.  I don't know exactly why the medical world is so ignorant about the realities of benzo withdrawal - they just are.  Rather than try to fight them - which will probably just result in more pain and frustration and in you being labeled a difficult patient with lots of problems and disorders, it would be best to do this on your own if possible, in my opinion.  This forum can help you.

 

The whole purpose of this forum is to help people like you taper and suport your healing after tapering, which can a months long process.  It's not perfect, but this forum is unique, there's nothing else like it currently online, and certainly not in "real life."

 

I wish I could go with a private doctor - but the problem is, I am stuck in a system where you agree to get all your healthcare from Kaiser Permanente.  Legally, I can go outside but coordination between my primary care provider, addiction medicine and the private provider would be a nightmare.  I could go to Member Services, I guess, if I have trouble but then I'll be labeled a problem patient..ugh.

 

I want to tell you all what I've decided to do -- I called mental health crisis for my health plan and the lady who answered was a therapist who seemed to immediately understand the severity of my symptoms and advised me to go to the urgent plan mental health clinic tomorrow morning.  I will be seeing a psychiatrist who is not my current provider. (This, conceivably, was logged in my chart.)  There, they will see my records (which is a good thing) and so it won't be "going around the plan", and thank goodness, the woman on the phone took my symptoms seriously.

 

I don't know what to bring, I don't want to overwhelm the prescriber with the entire manual.

 

Here's where I NEED HELP: Given the potential trouble with kindling, and that RECENTLY, I did best at 1mg once a day and 0.5mg of K, what would the appropriate V beginning dose be?  I was thinking a total of 20mg/day to start with, maybe 10am and 10hs.  It sucks that we are more educated than our providers - what would you ask for?

 

What should I bring?  I'm so scatterbrained from the wave right now, I can't get it together.  This has been a big ass wave.

 

Sorry, I never thought WD would be this scary otherwise I would have insisted on a Valium taper in the first place!

 

[[no...]]

I feel for you, and I was a heavy alcoholic and opiate user, as well as a period on benzos, resulting in me contributing to this site. Thing is, any rehab addictionologist won't prescribe benzos to get off benzos. They usually use phenobarbital or gabapentin. So I don't think there will be any possibility of getting another benzo. Seroquel and or mirtazapine for sleep, and the gabapentin will be extremely helpful and also prescribable by an addictionologist. Granted, the gabapentin is going to curtail healing, but you will be off the benzos, and your body will start recovery. The gabapentin should be helpful, and much easier to taper and get off of, because doctors are more than willing to prescribe it. Sounds like your gonna have to stick it out there, but when you get out the way I see it, you have 2 options. Continue with the addictionologist's meds, and taper, or find a psych willing to work with you on a Valium taper. But that is much easier said then done. Besides, once your off, it's not generally a good idea to reinstate unless symptoms are life threatening, and with comfort meds and adequate distraction techniques you should be fine

[[Na...]]

This is preposterous that these Dr's or working staff don't have a clue. I just went to utube and entered 'benzo withdrawal' in the search engine........... simple..........up came 18,600 uploads on that very subject. And every one of them are telling lies?? 

[[no...]]

Not lies necessarily, more like ignorance. They also don't accept anecdotal evidence over the word of pharmaceutical companies and their colleagues. Who have all been taught that benzos can be used safety long term which is a falsehood. Anything over a week if continued use and your asking for trouble. Pharmacists seem to be much more aware of this. I got  a prescription of halcion recently and the pharmacist looked at me like I was insane. She knew how dangerous they were. I only took 2, I had a few nights if severe insomnia. In that capacity, they helped immensely. I still have the rest of the bottle, which is amazing. I have come so far, before I would have taken them every night.

[[Na...]]

I was being somewhat sarcastic, the end of my post is referring to the user NOT the Dr.s

 

Halicon is one potent drug. It's banned in some countries I believe.

[[no...]]

Yeah it is. It is quite scary strong actually. Stops me from taking it unless dire need