Uncle, I'm tapping out, reinstating & starting all over again...

[[tw...]]

OK, after my 4th visit to the ER in 2 weeks (severe weight loss/stomach pain, heart palpitations, PVC's, chest pain and this week shortness of breath, feeling faint) I have to throw in the towel and am reinstating at the lowest possible dose to normalize. I absolutely realize what I am doing and know that it may not even work, but I can no longer function and can't miss any more work (I'm the primary bread winner in my family...)

 

I jumped on December 7th from .25 (well, really .16 I guess, but was only on that a couple days), so my plan is to updose to .75 and stabilize (is this too high, do you think? Should I start back at .25? I went from 2mg to .25 in about 2.5-3 months; I definitely don't want to go back up to 2mg or even 1 mg.

 

I'm so scared, but I was having PVC's so badly and starting to faint and having trouble breathing (like I was holding my breath involuntarily, etc.) that I just felt like I was either going to die physically or be sent to the loony bin.

 

I am SO VERY disappointed in myself. VERY. My taper went really well, minimum discomfort, and for almost 3 weeks after my jump, I was absolutely FINE. Then all hell broke loose and the last 4 weeks of my life have been a literally sh*t show, excuse my language.

 

If anyone else has reinstated, gone WAY slower and then had success, please feel free to offer any helpful advice.

 

I'm also on 15mg of Remeron since about 1.5 weeks ago, and that started to help me, but the passing out (I almost did it in a client meeting) is just too much to bear.

 

SO, hear I go again, I'm sure I'm good and kindled now and I'm just lost on what to reinstate to. (disclosure: I've taken about 3 rescue doses of .5 in the past week, after having nothing...)

 

stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid.  :'(

[[Ka...]]

I have failed tapers many times.  I haven't had a problem going back up and then heading back down.  I, too, have kids and have to be a functioning person.  I'm going much slower this time and I am taking 25mg of seroquel at night, which seems to be making this process easier.  I think you are being too hard on yourself.  If I were you, I would try to find the lowest dose that you can feel stable on.  How do you feel when you take .5mg?  Maybe start there? 

 

Good luck.  Don't go into it thinking that you will be kindled.  Just think that you will get stable and you will. 

[[me...]]

I agree, try to find the lowest dose you can stabilize at, I can't imagine it would be more than .5mg, perhaps even at .25 mg. It is going to take a few days to register, so don't panic. So sorry you've come to this. Sometimes you just have to keep trying, and I'm sure you've learned a lot through this process.

 

But I'm also wondering if the introduction of Remeron could have anything to do with what you are going through. If you are using it for insomnia, 15 mg. is a bit of a high dose, and can make some people very agitated (especially if you are not a large person). You might want to consider dropping your dose to 7.5 mg or 3.75 mg. 

[[be...]]

You said the Remeron is starting to help so I can't imagine that's your problem. I started it at 87 lbs 15 mg and it really really helped. I wouldn't change it. At least not yet.

If you've been to the ER the fainting etc is I'm just just your body declaring war on you because it realized at some point no more benzos. If you really need to reinstate I'd try the lowest dose possible. It's very hard when others rely on you so no you're not stupid. Just unwell. So if you can restabalze go from there. Then slowly resume your taper.

It's just my opinion but many get caught up with fear over kindling. I suspect though even though I'm sure it can happen it's more the fear of it causing symptoms than kindling itself. I think honestly it's much more common with alcohol and even though both effect gaba receptors they do so in different ways.

Good luck. It has to be very hard going out into the world like this. But I'd really try to start at the lowest dose possible and above all don't be too hard on yourself. You're human after all. B

[[...]]

You're not stupid. Please don't be so hard on yourself.

I agree with what other BB here.

Find the lowest dose that only you know and feel. Get stable and start cutting when you're feeling better.

 

Good luck ☺

 

 

 

 

 

[[bb...]]

Don't be hard on yourself. I am the same way. This is my third time on Klonopin and when my dr. prescribed .5 am and .5 pm I wouldn't take that dose because I didn't like the way it made me feel (very depressed). Well, I did that for 3 months with raging anxiety and finally had to throw in the towel. I updosed to .5 am and .75 pm and I am now tapering. I was so upset with myself but I had to do something.

 

So I am sorta in the same boat as you. Just let's take it slow and try to get through this best we can. Hugs to you!

[[be...]]

This is my third attempt at tapering. The reason I had to reinstate was because I tapered too fast and didn't know what I was doing. You were tapering too fast as well. If I knew that I should only cut 5-10% every 2 weeks I would have saved myself a lot of suffering. Anyways you need to stabilize first so if .75 doesn't work go up to 1 mg. At this point there is no use beating yourself up. You didn't know because doctors know nothing about benzo withdrawal so we are left out in the dark. Once you stabilize start tapering slowly making 5-10% cuts every 2 weeks and you should be fine.

[[tw...]]

Thank you all for your responses and encouragement. I'm just so disappointed that I made it 5-6 weeks off with nothing, but I can tell you I was suffering immensely (along with my family and co-workers...) I'm surprised I was as functional as I WAS for so long. (this is not even including the 3 months of hell on my taper from 2mg to .25mg...)

 

I'm going to first try and stabilize on .25 now that I think about it. (although I already took .25 today and am feeling pretty anxious, etc. I MAY have to go back up to .5)

 

Going to feel my way through this, and then I will taper VERY, VERY slowly over months if I have to.

 

It's just confusing/frustrating, as I really hit a stride with my taper, got down fast with really minimal symptoms (they'd peak at day 10 after a cut, then level out at around day 15, and then I'd cut again...) I was just doing so well, so to get hit 3-4 weeks out with SEVERE, acute withdrawal just really blindsided me.

 

I've never felt like I was 100% dying before like I have these past 2 weeks. I seriously hope a year from now, I can look back on this nightmare and have it just be a distant memory.

 

Thanks again for your support - it is SO very, very helpful!

[[Jo...]]

Hi Twinkle, IMO, you are going way too fast.  I started at 1 mg K 1 yr ago, and am now at 6 mg V.  which coverts to 0.3 Mg K more or less.  I am slowing it down even further.  This past week, I got overconfident and ended up in a day from hell, which caused me to rescue dose.  A minor setback.  I am stabilizing at 6.0 mg V. for a couple of weeks, and will start to cut, much more slowly.  I am working out how to do daily microcuts right now. 

 

I have to really make an effort to stay consistent.  Each time I rush it I end up in the same place.  So, enough is enough. 

 

I always have to ask the question: How important is it to stop in March, May, July, or Sept.  The answer is that it changes nothing.  After 18/19 yrs on these drugs a few months, or a yr isn't going to make a difference.  We/I need to remember that Benzos are not lethal, with the usual provisons of course (dont drink on them, etc.).  An overdose of a proportion to put a person in the hospital would take more than all the pills I have at any given time. 

 

Believe me, this is a learning experience.  Very few people on this board have likley gotten away without some 'learnings on the way". 

 

And stop beating yourself up. 

[[Jo...]]

On kindling.  I try to approach things as science.  And the science on this is scant.  So, I am left with logic. 

 

I'll walk through my thinking on this.  As we taper, our GABA receptors, hormones, and neurons adjust to less drug.  Otherwise we could never quit.  We could never get better but many do.  I was funtional on 1 mg per day for 18 years with no severe issues.  The reason I want off is because the drug was no longer working at the dose I had initially been prescribed.  It was only keeping me from withdrawal by satisfying my bodies dependence.  In fact, in retrospect it stopped working after a year or so, which led me down the garden path to ADs.  So, there I was, taking 1 mg K., having panic attacks, bouts of insomnia, amd everything else, exactly as I had been before I ever took any drugs.  It parallels any other drug withdrawal: nicotine, or alcohol being the ones I have the most experience with.  After a while we take the drug to feel normal (for me normal meant the symptoms above).  So, it still works, sort of.  But all its doing is satisfying the addiction. 

 

So back to the taper and 'kindling'.  Our bodies recover the ability to manage our respective issues by adjusting to the dose slowly, as we get lower in dose.  Parker's essay at the top of the forum sums this up really well.  If we updose, we experience relief for awhile but our bodies quickly adjust back to having the drug.  In my case, I would be back to the cycle of interdose withdrawals I was already in when I decided to stop.  It would just be a reversion to the mean. 

 

Now, if I didn't keep good records of my symptoms and taper I would begin to think that the drug wasn't working at the old dose I was taking.  So, I should updose before I start to taper again? And then when I tried to taper again I would be thinking that this is hell, way worse than last time.  But I keep good records.  This has been hell at times! If I updose back to my orginal dose or higher I will have to do the exact same thing over again and endure the same symptoms all over again.  Maybe I will have some new ones thrown in due to changes in my bodies physiology, or aging (I get more symptoms of aging every year). 

 

I dont think kindling exists.  If it does, it is exceedingly hard to quantify.  We are dealing entirely in anecdotes and self reporting.  What I really think happens is that we forget the pain we went through with each withdrawal, and it seems tougher.  I do know that our bodies need stability.  And mucking around with these drugs by tapering too fast, or rescue dosing, just prolongs our efforts at stability. 

As BenzoBarb mentions in another thread there have never been double blind studies on the withdrawal process from benzos.  So, where do we get kindling from.  Its entirely anecdotal based on self reporting. 

 

A round about way of saying: You got enough to worry about without creating more.  Imwould updose to a functional level, and very slowly taper from there.  I am going way slower than Ashton, which though a good first pass at the problem, is entirely devoid of solid science. 

[[Tw...]]

It's my second round as well and unless your the exception Id just say your going to be tapering more than a few months of your dose. The goal ultimately, if we can, is to come off the drug with as few sxs's as possible. I'm coming off 3 mgs and now at 12 mgs of Valium slowing down 10 months later. Klonopin is a nasty, nasty drug and I'm sorry your going through this too.

[[Se...]]

Don't be disappointed in yourself. This just means you need to taper slower. You got this. One day you are going to wake up and wonder if this was all just a dream. You will be strong and confident once again. Try not to worry. Fake it if you have to. Worry begets fear which is the jailer of our life. I think once you are free and clear of benzos, that worry and fear will melt away. Hang in there.

[[er...]]

Well, good luck with whatever you decide..

 

I had an awful time tapering off of clonazepam and experienced my worst symptoms during the 7 month taper, but I jumped at .0625mg - for what it's worth, I think you probably just got excited to get off of this crap and jumped at too high of a dose, .25ish?  I think that's why your ass got kicked..

 

I only say this, because I did something similar with risperdal about a month after my benzo jump.  I tried to go cold turkey off of it, but got crushed and had to reinstate to 3/4 of original dose and still dealt with horrible symptoms for a couple of months from that experience.

 

I waited about 5 months before tapering risperdal successfully.  I got in pretty good physical shape and did very small cuts and would just work out like crazy when issues arose.

 

Btw, I had the breathing issues you talk about, and I got some "primatine" tablets which would get rid of that very scary symptom.

 

If you gotta reinstate, only go to .25, and then work your way down.  Personally, I'd never want to cover the same ground twice - it was all just too terrible to consider.  Lately, after my heart calmed down, exercise is really helping me.  If you can do it, I highly recommend it!

 

Good luck, I know this all sucks real bad, but keep the faith!

 

Eric

[[am...]]

I agree with Jorges post. Kindling has never been proven. Its hard to withdrawal every time. Stabilize as much as you can and take your time on your next taper and youll be fine. I tried to plow through my taper and learned that doesnt work too. Doing very good now!

[[be...]]

Hi:

 

I had kindled twice after two miserable and failed CTs. And I reinstated to a whopping dose, per my pdoc. I had no clue what klonopin was. I think if people here said they were stupid at some point, there would be no members on this site. I agree with the rest. Start at the lowest possible dose~~.5 mg or .25 mg~~and wait to stabilize. Then I would go really slow on this one. I recall I wanted to be safe and not suffer like I did at detox centers (now that's stupid!), and dropped only by 5% every 14 days. It all went well with my K taper and not I am tapering my C/O to Valium. This is not as easy as my K taper so for the first time I had to hold for 3 weeks. I hated the thought of holding but my pdoc said it was part and parcel to any benzo taper. Now I have stabilized and am dropping by a slower amount. That's why I wrote in my profile, "The hurrier I go, the behinder I get." Like I questioned my pdoc about holding and his response was to me, "Betsy, are you planning a trip to the moon?"