Kpin vs Valium - pros and cons

[[Pl...]]

can someone please tell me the differences between Kpin and Valium when it comes to tapering- the pros and cons with people who have experienced this

 

I don't understand that if  Kpin is so much stronger then Valium but yet I always hear how sedating Valium is.... Shouldn't it be the other way around?

 

 

This morning I had a tiny bit more clarity because I took two of my doses closer together last night ( don't know if this had anything to do with it)

 

This morning I took my kolonopin dose (dread it with every fiber of my being) and boom here it comes:

 

High out of my mind - eyes like slits - literally on another planet- brain feels

Like its soaked in alcohol and is shutting down

( I look like it too)

D/p  D/R

vegetable comatose zombie

Staring episodes due to tranquilization

Inability to think

When I speak I stutter can't form a sentence

Memory shot

what thoughts that come to my head aren't mine - mind feels beyond altered

Love life but yet mind goes to dark places

Deepest darkest depression I ever had in my life

Uptick in facial ticks/ spasms

Can't move my body feel paralyzed

Can't care for myself I'm so weak sick and high

Muscle pain pins needles

Extreme Rage/anger

Restlessness

Constant crying

Agoraphobic

Scared of everything around me - even myself

High anxiety - terror like feelings

 

How can this be?!?!?!?!? Does this sound like an anti anxiety drug to you?!?!

And here we go until round 2 starts....

 

The potency of this drug is unbelievable for me...

 

I know this is a subjective experience but is Valium anything like this? .even at say 3mgs or 1 mg?!?!

 

 

[[Pl...]]

Bump

[[...]]

I hate Valium - wish I never crossed.

I'm not able to function. My husband does everything right now. I have great trouble walking, need help showering, getting dressed, can't cook. Broken sleep, unsteadiness, muscle stiffness, strange body sensation and other stuff.  I hit tolerance last January but when I crossed to Valium I became very ill. Can't go out, Agoraphobia is terrible. I'm afraid of doing anything, ans. The door, having visitors. Talking on the phone.  I feel totally overmedicated.  BUT some people have no issues at all.  I'm not one of them.

 

 

 

[[be...]]

Ditto Menas comment. No idea why but Valium makes me feel absolutely dreadful. I didn't have nearly as much trouble with klonopin so we're all very different. What's right for one isn't for another but if you're struggling so much with klonopin and your doctor says ok to switching to Valium it might really help. So I'm in the con column but that doesn't mean the same is true for everyone. B

[[li...]]

'I don't understand that if  Kpin is so much stronger then Valium but yet I always hear how sedating Valium is.... Shouldn't it be the other way around?'

 

Different drugs. Up to a point, it depends on the individual.

 

Let's say the Kpin provides a different kind of sedation. Diazepam's sedation is more like a 'classical' feeling of sedating. Tolerance to the sedative effects of diazepam may or may not develop quickly. Not sure.

 

'This morning I had a tiny bit more clarity because I took two of my doses closer together last night ( don't know if this had anything to do with it)'

Not sure what did the taking both doses (you ose twice a day?) in the evening vs. the effect of the next morning dose.

 

I was never able to split my single dose either.

 

I wouldn't call it an anti anxiety drug. It's more like an epilepsy drug from hell. I think it was first marketed for that purpose (not in the USA) around 1970.

 

 

 

[[bu...]]

 

 

I don't understand that if  Kpin is so much stronger then Valium but yet I always hear how sedating Valium is.... Shouldn't it be the other way around?

 

 

 

 

All benzos share the same set of therapeutic effects, ( sedative, hypnotic, anxiolytic, anticonvulsant, muscle relaxant, and amnesic actions)  but there are differences in the relative strength of the different effects.

 

For example, Valium is a potent sedative, xanax is a potent anxiolytic, midzolam is a potent hynotic/amnesiac, etc.  It really isn't accurate to try to describe a  benzo as more or less "potent" overall.

[[be...]]

Xanax conquered my anxiety better than anything (until it didn't). Ativan gave me an "I don't care about diddly attitude ", klonopin put me to sleep because I took my high dose at bed for that reason, and Valium just sedates everything. My brain, my muscles, everything. But in the end I didn't need any of it to begin with. My anxiety was misdiagnosed as panic disorder but what I really had was a serious thyroid problem. Still this is how I reacted to the different ones. In the end a benzo is a benzo in my opinion. In theory they're meant to calm us down and keep us that way (until they don't). Nasty little pills. All of them should never be used as a permanent solution for anxiety yet so often this has been what doctors have done. So here we are. I'll just be so happy when I can write a success story. I won't include the bad and the ugly. Just the good. And I'm hoping I won't take off and not keep supporting others here when that time comes. Builder is a prime example of someone who has remained to help us all. Feel really grateful to read his posts. There's hope everyone. No matter what benzo you're on.

And yes in Canada klonopin was indeed originally marketed as an anti seizure medication but is not used for that purpose any more. If it is it's in conjunction with other anti seizure medication. What a wonderful thing it was that it was finally approved for anxiety. A life saver for big pharma.

Sorry if I went off topic. Won't blame the Valium. I've got the flu. B

[[Ca...]]

Barb, u will stay... -how could u not!!!  -hope u getting on top of that flu?? And maybe found a lemon or two..

Another informative post, thanks Builder, Barb, everyone... am enjoying the reading tonight...

[[me...]]

Here's what Professor Ashton has to say about Klonopin:

 

Some doctors in the US switch patients onto clonazepam (Klonopin, [Rivotril in Canada]), believing that it will be easier to withdraw from than say alprazolam (Xanax) or lorazepam (Ativan) because it is more slowly eliminated. However, Klonopin is far from ideal for this purpose. It is an extremely potent drug, is eliminated much faster than diazepam (See Table 1, Chapter I), and the smallest available tablet in the US is 0.5mg (equivalent to 10mg diazepam) and 0.25mg in Canada (equivalent to 5mg Valium). It is difficult with this drug to achieve a smooth, slow fall in blood concentration, and there is some evidence that withdrawal is particularly difficult from high potency benzodiazepines, including Klonopin. Some people, however, appear to have particular difficulty in switching from Klonopin to diazepam. In such cases it is possible to have special capsules made up containing small doses, e.g. an eighth or a sixteenth of a milligram or less, which can be used to make gradual dosage reductions straight from Klonopin. These capsules require a doctor's prescription and can be made up by hospital pharmacists and some chemists in the UK, and by compounding pharmacists in North America.

 

Personally I hate Klonopin, and would much rather be on Valium, but it seems to be quite an individual thing.

[[Pl...]]

Thank you all for your replies.... Kpin is not working at all and I'm beyond a mess which everyone already knows..

 

It is causing more harm and the opposite of what it should be doing.... ... I am so tempted to cold turkey but I've been down that route before and I honestly don't know at this point if it would get worse... All I know is it can't stay this way... I cannot stabilize even remotely if its doing the opposite :'( that's all I'm looking for... Some functionality.. Just some... Not to feel like I'm in a severe

Acute withdrawal every second of every day......at .91 mg.....

 

Emailed bat aid they were cordial and said better to discuss on phone....they said to keep dialing over and over.... I need help like yesterday... I will be doing this till we get thru

 

I'm having serious side effects reactions that feel life threatening and are horrific....

 

Dr. Said to just stop it....and then what?    If I'm paradoxical will it all just go away and ill be okay? Or could it actually get worse?

 

..I desperately need bat aids expertise and hope we can get thru ASAP.... I don't want to end up in the hospital... My body can't keep taking all these hits constantly

 

Someone suggested taper a little quicker and maybe some of the sxs will reduce more and ill get an answer... Especially if I feel better from a more consistent reduction.... I'm trying that strategy now....

 

It saddens /terrifies me and makes me feel trapped that there are no doctors here that I can trust and that can help me....

[[be...]]

It sounds like maybe switching to Valium might be the answer. I don't like it but I wasn't having trouble on klonopin. So no matter what the drug is if it's hurting you and causing this much anguish I'd certainly try the switch. Is that possible? If so I'd do it as soon as I could. Hang on. No matter what you're going to get through this one way or another even if you can't see that now. We're all really different but I was (am) feeling like you with the Valium so I actually started a faster taper and so far it's actually helped. Maybe it's just the knowledge that with luck I can be done sooner because each dose feels toxic. Most would say go slow and for the most part I agree but I've found each cut has actually provided a bit more relief and strength even though pretty rapid. No idea if this would work for you but if you can't get some Valium maybe give that a try? Wish I could help more. B

[[Pl...]]

It sounds like maybe switching to Valium might be the answer. I don't like it but I wasn't having trouble on klonopin. So no matter what the drug is if it's hurting you and causing this much anguish I'd certainly try the switch. Is that possible? If so I'd do it as soon as I could. Hang on. No matter what you're going to get through this one way or another even if you can't see that now. We're all really different but I was (am) feeling like you with the Valium so I actually started a faster taper and so far it's actually helped. Maybe it's just the knowledge that with luck I can be done sooner because each dose feels toxic. Most would say go slow and for the most part I agree but I've found each cut has actually provided a bit more relief and strength even though pretty rapid. No idea if this would work for you but if you can't get some Valium maybe give that a try? Wish I could help more. B

 

Barb... I appreciate your advice very much...

I like you feel toxic and I'm not sure but I figured try

Every angle

I took a tiny bit of a more reduction then usual to see

This is very scary because even though you feel very

Very bad on the drug it can go the other way where

You could feel worse reducing too quick too

Its like a no win.. You know? That's my fear :'(

Like that trapped feeling

Not sure about the Valium yet...

The Kpin is literally holding me together by a splitting thread

I'm desperately hoping to have an answer from Bataid I pray

This week xxxxx

 

[[Pl...]]

Barb/Mena /anyone:

 

I just took my 3:00 pm dose and usually within the first hour I get an uptick in sxs like today after the dose my whole chest and head was filled with intense muscular pressure as if I was in a pressure chamber...causing me to have shallow breathing....

 

I saw these sxs listed as side effects on the insert too...

 

Do you ever experience any side effects  like immediately after you dose too?

 

This is brutal...

[[be...]]

Yes. Not so much my chest even though that would be normal. My head feels very "full" kind of like when you get a ton of water in your ears. But it's my head. Also I start to burn like crazy and get waves of nausea. Sometimes I shake and my legs turn to liquid.  These pass and then I need to dose again in a couple of hours. This is why I'm trying, with caution, to make smaller but faster cuts. I believe the Valium does me as much harm as the withdrawal but like you catch 22. Take off too much equals trouble but so do my doses. To me it's best to try and accept the dose, let it pass, enjoy whatever time in between if possible and carry on. Honestly don't see any other options. But the lower I go at least for now the easier it's getting. B

[[be...]]

As an example I really needed to wash my hair. Took my dose 2 stupid mg at 1:30 and had to wait 90 minutes to get my hair done. I'm pretty ok now. But 5:30 will come and boom. Same old pattern but not as bad. I eat close to 6:00 and this really helps. I'm better in the evenings as well. Many people are. My 9:00 dose doesn't bother me at all but I'm also preoccupied watching tv. Thinking distractions play a huge role. B

[[...]]

I only dose 1 at bedtime, 9pm. It throws me for a loop - I wake up to use the bathroom I can't get out of bed sometimes, I literally don't have the strength so I have to wake up

My husband and he pulls me up and walks me to the bathroom. I'm like a drunken sailor. I'm the morning when I get up at 530 (awake at 430 but i lay there in fear) I can do it myself.  I still struggle but i can do it.  I'm totally overmedicated from the Valium. 

[[be...]]

I think all benzos have their problems . To me, kpin helped me a lot until it didn't. Thus I became paradoxical to it so my only recourse was a partial c/o to 70 mg of Valium. I did notice that after I took my dose of Klonopin I felt revved up, which was bad for me cause I took most of my dose at bed. The Valium was super sedating for the first two weeks and I napped a lot. Now that I am halfway through this taper I sure wish those napping days came back. To me it's a choice  between hell's waiting room vs. hell's waiting room.

 

[[Ma...]]

Klonopin gave me memory problems. I've combined 20mg of Valium with 2mg of Klonopin, that I was regularly on about a year ago and I barely noticed it. Librium is the weakest benzo available I think. It was the first one every synthesized. They made Valium from Librium actually. Librium really does not do much for anxiety. It is way weaker than Klonopin. It took me months to adjust to Librium from Klonopin. Klonopin is the most potent benzo prescribed in the US. It is twice as potent as Xanax actually. They need to fix the equivalency chart. I'm so grateful to be off of it. I rather take the weakest benzo possible that helps me get off benzos. I don't know how I would react to Valium now but I am thinking about crossing over to it once I get to 10mg of Librium. I'll at least ask because Librium doesn't come in tablet form. I'll have to use a microgram scale and weigh out Librium powder and just empty out half a capsule. I've done it before. You can't compound Librium because it is unstable in water too. I personally would rather be on Valium because Klonopin can cause the early onset of dementia...more so than any other benzo. I read this somewhere a while back. I don't know if it is a fact but when I was taking Klonopin I couldn't remember if I brushed my teeth or what I ate for breakfast most days or struggled remembering.

[[li...]]

Pleasebehere,

 

I think you have dystonia ? Sorry, my memory isn't great. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystonia'

 

I'm assuming you have ...

I've been reading up on several issues. Clonazepam tends to have an effect on the striatum and the basal ganglia, more so than most other benzos.

´likely originating in those parts of the brain concerned with motor function, such as the basal ganglia, and the GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid) producing Purkinje neurons.´

 

As in, clonazepam has a strong effect on the ´motor cortex´.

 

For the most part, dopamine, acetylcholine and gaba.

 

As for the solution ... while you could try a dopamine agonist, typically what is suggested is removal of the ´offending agent´.

 

So you got bad luck by being on both lorazepam and clonazepam. Indeed, I think your best bet is to get off.

 

I hope this made sense, my memory isn´t that good and it´s late here !

 

[[Ca...]]

Hmmm, can one get GI tract dystonia, i wonder...

 

pleaseBe, i think i was sorta like u describe, the waking up and not being able to move, but not a muscle thing, more that there was no connection between my brain and muscles.. i couldnt reach my arm out for the life of me... i think i should have been in hospital...

It was only on and off for a couple of months, (sept, oct 2016 re. Sig) when i was at my very worst...

Not sure if its similar to you, but it got better...

Have followed some of ur posts and remember wondering if there was some reaction happening??

-is way beyond me, so pls dont be alarmed, -i just hope u get it worked out, and wish you the very best...

 

[[Ca...]]

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=165486

[[Pl...]]

Pleasebehere,

 

I think you have dystonia ? Sorry, my memory isn't great. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystonia'

 

I'm assuming you have ...

I've been reading up on several issues. Clonazepam tends to have an effect on the striatum and the basal ganglia, more so than most other benzos.

´likely originating in those parts of the brain concerned with motor function, such as the basal ganglia, and the GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid) producing Purkinje neurons.´

 

As in, clonazepam has a strong effect on the ´motor cortex´.

 

For the most part, dopamine, acetylcholine and gaba.

 

As for the solution ... while you could try a dopamine agonist, typically what is suggested is removal of the ´offending agent´.

 

So you got bad luck by being on both lorazepam and clonazepam. Indeed, I think your best bet is to get off.

 

I hope this made sense, my memory isn´t that good and it´s late here !

 

First thank you everyone for responding sooooooo.  much

 

 

Liberty you said the best bet is to get off... But in what way....do I switch to something else ( which my body couldnt even handle right now) too sensitized for another change...or do i keep tapering in this state which could take forever...(another impossibility) hoping it gets better on the way down....

or do I just get off completely and take an anti seizure med... Suffering greatly and terrified..

 

My brother is inclined to think that the dose is too high and toxic presenting worsening side effects and if I can get down it will lessen.... I am completely bedridden with severe dystonic fatigue episodes... Its feels as though my nervous system is slowly collapsing and I am near dying....

 

During my menstrual cycle I actually have intensity of severe dystonic episodes with seizure like activity of head and body thrashing starting with severe face movement....

 

I have no medical professional I can trust and guide me ... My dr knows this is happening and just said to stop after one year? But then what? This could get worse; no?

 

This is all terrifying as there is no certainty of which to do...

Something needs to be done immediately as my body can no longer sustain the constant onslaught...

I've been leaning heavily on you guys in order to reach that point

.

Redialing Bataid like crazy with brother.since Monday as they are the only professionals I feel I have at this point....... Very very severe side effect episodes..... I am in critical condition...

I honestly believe if I went into a hospital I wouldn't come out... But something is very wrong and I've been there already......please pray