Is it all in our heads?

[Guest [Th...]]

I read insomnia blogs where people can't sleep for days and feel wired and pretty much have the same benzo symptoms even though they never took benzos.  So is this insomnia thing all psychological?  How could a lot of people that never took benzos have the same sort of insomnia experience.  This scares me as I am now beginning to believe I am not in withdrawal and this is just the way I am?  I say this because I took some Xanax and K-pin for about 10 weeks in the winter and got off and never had any withdrawal or anything else go wrong.  In fact I went back to a normal sleep pattern for a out 6 weeks after jumping CT.  So maybe, for me, this is not WD and I am just F*******? 

 

Help

 

[[Fi...]]

Insomnia has many causes and what triggers insomnia in benzoWD is the excess of the excitatory glutamate over the lack of the inhibitory GABA.

 

To the extent that our brain/body is kept and held in hyper-alert states by a surfeit of excitatory neuroactivity, insomnia is beyond our control until re-balance happens through healing.

 

Insomnia, whatever the cause, creates its own vicious circle where exhaustion leads to further exhaustion and a transient 'tired & wired' state - alertness causing alertness, which inhibits sleep.

 

We are the ones who have a double-battle, 'combating' the effects of benzo-induced insomnia together with the effects of insomnia-induced insomnia - if that makes sense.

 

I didn't sleep for about six months (at this time last year) and, in the last six months, there has been a tentative return of sleep in tiny, tiny, un-pin-downable increments - with all of that "illogical", non-linear, one-step-forward-two-steps-back format with which we are all so familiar; but it is happening.

 

I am continually amazed by how the body knows what to do and how "we" and what we think about it - back-seat drivers that we are in this situation - just do not get a look in with all our stoopid logic!

 

 

 

 

[Guest [Th...]]

Thanks Fizzlewitch,

 

So I just need more time?

[[Ma...]]

Hard to believe you had no sleep for 6 months, the world record for no sleep was just 11 days

[[Fi...]]

Hard to believe you had no sleep for 6 months, the world record for no sleep was just 11 days

 

If you're being literalist.....yeah 

[[Fi...]]

Thanks Fizzlewitch,

 

So I just need more time?

 

I don't know TheWay (ha ha!)

 

But I do know my own experience - and it is repeated and repeated in all the success stories; sleep eventually comes back to benzoWDers at a crawlingly slow pace and that is what I, too, have found.

 

Looking at your sig, I see that insomnia was the reason you went on benzos to begin with. Were you able to identify what caused it and is the then source of it now gone?

[Guest [Th...]]

Didn't find out what caused it.  Had a few bad nights and was put on Benzos right away

[[Ni...]]

30 month off and my insomnia never improved i sleep 2-3 hour a night for 3 years straight daily. Waking up evrry 1 hour after a dream. My sleep circle have been destroyed by those meds

Prior to benzo i was sleeping 10 hours straight without any wake up

 

Its agony never though i would still not sleep this far out

[[Fi...]]

Didn't find out what caused it.  Had a few bad nights and was put on Benzos right away

 

That was a very fast rush-to-prescribing, considering there were only "a few bad nights".

 

I'd go with Ashton on this. To paraphrase: For those who successfully taper & withdraw, with time & healing comes relief and the original reasons for medicating [will have] disappeared in almost all cases. 

 

 

[[Fi...]]

Apart from other things (like eating properly etc) my sleep only began to return when I stopped making "a thing" of it.

 

Actually, I went the other way, by making a "big deal" about not giving a rats arse whether I got to sleep or not. It was pretty easy to do, considering that I wasn't sleeping anyway and the only material difference was my fretting about it 

 

When I got more laid back about the whole thing, paradoxically, I began to drift for an hour at a time...eventually joining up those periods into longer periods and so on.

 

I'm not fully back yet or to the quality I'd aspire to - but at this stage, I just know it is all moving in the right direction - and that is a repeated feature across other people's success stories 

[Guest [Th...]]

How long did it take once you stopped caring if you slept or not to start getting some sleep back

[[Fi...]]

I honestly don't know - probably because I had given up keeping track of that too at the same time.

 

But I can tell you that I went from about three hours a night in June to about seven-eight hours now, all in non-linear, fuzzy random-ish sorta way.

 

I had only two "rules" - one was going to bed and putting myself in the way of getting some sleep at the same time every night (actually that was 5am and I stuck to it) and the other was to make a nightly pre-bed 'ritual' (milk & banana, hot-water bottle, out the house lights, diarying, bland book and, then, WHATEVER).

 

It is well known that sleep is paradoxical for insomniacs - the more you chase it, think about it, try to "manage" it and worry about the lack of it, the more it evades you.

 

Now, I'm at about 2.30am and I give even less of a rats!

[[jo...]]

Hello theway - yes sleep deprivation can cause the same symptoms as benzos do I know I been there several times in which I went 6 days without sleeping. Twice I ended up on clonazepam for sleep because nothing else worked.

 

Went through this two years ago and used melatonin to wean myself off the benzo . All together on and off was around 6 months , i deleted my old signature. Now Im back on in the same boat but now 63 and its 5 times more difficult.

 

In my case it was life long depression that took my sleep away so im getting hit three ways. Insomnia , depression and now the damn benzo. Cant seem to go below a tad under 0.25mgs or its wide awake city. The melatonin works SOME nights before I take the K at midnight but after midnight if the K does not allow Me to sleep at all then Im up all night because the melatonin wont work after I take the K.

 

Even when the K works its only good for one or two hours at most. So yes sleep loss can be just as bad as Benzo withdrawals been there two years ago and Im there now. I have NO solution to this problem but its true what fizzlewitch said about how all this feeds itself. The only thing I would like to add is if Your sleep loss is due to depression in the first place then the sleep will NOT come  back once Your off the benzo unless You correct the depression problem and that is why I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. I wish You luck.

[[...]]

Assuming you have no WD and haven't used benzo's in the past

 

Insomnia is 100% in your head, you're not sleeping due to reasons in your mind.

 

Unless you have had a major car crash or hit in the head which has affected the area of the brain that regulates sleep

 

Other than those two, insomnia is 100% related to a mental trigger

[[Fi...]]

Assuming you have no WD and haven't used benzo's in the past

 

Insomnia is 100% in your head, you're not sleeping due to reasons in your mind.

 

Unless you have had a major car crash or hit in the head which has affected the area of the brain that regulates sleep

 

Other than those two, insomnia is 100% related to a mental trigger

 

I think it's a little bit more than that, Zuko.

 

Here's a little extract from a withdrawal-savvy person (this time about SSRIs, but really concerning any psychotropic drug) that, I think, gives a good insight:-

 

"...Sleep disorders are very, very common in withdrawal syndrome. Excessive alerting activity and inappropriately raised cortisol at night causes the awful withdrawal insomnia.

 

The brain wants to keep us alert to respond to (non-existent) threats, and wakes us up when we become too inattentive. Tragically, the alerting response is triggered by the relaxation of sleep. This is not a circadian rhythm disorder. It is entirely iatrogenic.

 

Too strong an intervention, even deep relaxation, will cause the meta-homeostasis to increase alerting activity. The paradoxical nature of the condition is particularly hard to understand..."

 

https://beyondmeds.com/2011/07/28/ssriprotractedwithdrawal/

 

I imagine the above is also true for those whose neurology is downregulated simply by unrelieved chronic stress (without drugs at all).

 

The real trick seems to be to reassure one's "regulating mechanisms" by gradual, tentative, relaxation methods and, paradoxically, shutting down/letting go any concerns about getting to sleep. This allows the body take over and do its thing in a natural way, without "our" interference.

 

That is what I did. It works. Stop giving a rats arse about "getting sleep". The message eventually gets through.

 

[[...]]

Assuming you have no WD and haven't used benzo's in the past

 

Insomnia is 100% in your head, you're not sleeping due to reasons in your mind.

 

Unless you have had a major car crash or hit in the head which has affected the area of the brain that regulates sleep

 

Other than those two, insomnia is 100% related to a mental trigger

 

excellent advice

 

XOX

 

I think it's a little bit more than that, Zuko.

 

Here's a little extract from a withdrawal-savvy person (this time about SSRIs, but really concerning any psychotropic drug) that, I think, gives a good insight:-

 

"...Sleep disorders are very, very common in withdrawal syndrome. Excessive alerting activity and inappropriately raised cortisol at night causes the awful withdrawal insomnia.

 

The brain wants to keep us alert to respond to (non-existent) threats, and wakes us up when we become too inattentive. Tragically, the alerting response is triggered by the relaxation of sleep. This is not a circadian rhythm disorder. It is entirely iatrogenic.

 

Too strong an intervention, even deep relaxation, will cause the meta-homeostasis to increase alerting activity. The paradoxical nature of the condition is particularly hard to understand..."

 

https://beyondmeds.com/2011/07/28/ssriprotractedwithdrawal/

 

I imagine the above is also true for those whose neurology is downregulated simply by unrelieved chronic stress (without drugs at all).

 

The real trick seems to be to reassure one's "regulating mechanisms" by gradual, tentative, relaxation methods and, paradoxically, shutting down/letting go any concerns about getting to sleep. This allows the body take over and do its thing in a natural way, without "our" interference.

 

That is what I did. It works. Stop giving a rats arse about "getting sleep". The message eventually gets through.

 

[[...]]

I read insomnia blogs where people can't sleep for days and feel wired and pretty much have the same benzo symptoms even though they never took benzos.  So is this insomnia thing all psychological?  How could a lot of people that never took benzos have the same sort of insomnia experience.  This scares me as I am now beginning to believe I am not in withdrawal and this is just the way I am?  I say this because I took some Xanax and K-pin for about 10 weeks in the winter and got off and never had any withdrawal or anything else go wrong.  In fact I went back to a normal sleep pattern for a out 6 weeks after jumping CT.  So maybe, for me, this is not WD and I am just F*******? 

 

Help

 

Hi there

 

just reposting this as it may be of help you and others. our reaction to not sleeping is critical - learning not to care is the key - hard to do but many people have found this approach to be helpful

 

HI all,

 

For all of you (including me) suffering insomnia (due to benzo's or not) this source might help:

 

https://thesleepschool.org/

 

Dr Guy Meadows talks about how much insomnia is fear based, ie the more anxious we are about not sleeping the less we tend to sleep and advocates accepting your insomnia as a way to improve it. Essentially you have to learn to not give a dam because the more you worry/obsess about sleep the more you put it up on a pedestal and the more pressure you put on yourself to sleep (which means less sleep). Your struggle against insomnia just makes it worse so you have to give up the struggle. The method is by no means a magic pill and can take a while to work but certainly it's worth a try. This approach is also no different to what many people have said (who have recovered or doing better) which is that worry makes insomnia so much worse and that you need to accept the current situation as a way of moving forward and improving it.

 

Guy has also written a nice book on the subject "The Sleep Book" which is an easy/fast read

 

Hope this helps

 

luv and hugs from down under

 

XOX

[[Lo...]]

If you're not on benzos or z-drugs and have trouble sleeping, there could be other reasons (SSRI'S, coffee, etc. etc.). It's not purely mental. People with higher baseline anxiety may have trouble falling asleep. Chronic pain may make sleep more difficult, and so can many different things. Mental and physical are not so separate. Some people have higher degree of physical anxiety and some have higher degree of mental anxiety, but usually there is a feedback loop. In some people, the feedback loop is stronger than in the others.

[[El...]]

Thanks FizzleWitch u have a way to explain things, it calmed me down. Did u or do u ever use anything to improve your sleep?

[[...]]

hi Fizzlewitch

 

i love your attitude about not caring about sleeping but is it always that easy to not care? i mean did it take you a while to develop this attitude? also were there times when ur attitude failed you and you became so tired/fed up that you needed some kind of rescue dose? if so what did you use?

 

thanks

 

XOX

[[Fi...]]

Thanks FizzleWitch u have a way to explain things, it calmed me down. Did u or do u ever use anything to improve your sleep?

 

Hi Elbette...

 

No, I use nothing at all - deliberately so.

 

Difficult though that can be, initially, I have an intuitive belief that people who "take something" are probably making life more difficult for themselves in the long run.

 

I feel that if we outsource our belief about "getting sleep" to [any pill] instead of nurturing that ability naturally, within ourselves, then we will easily come to believe, over time, that "we need" an external thing to sleep & stay asleep - and we will have handed over control of our natural sleep response to that external thing; yet another form of dependence.

 

As I wasn't getting any sleep anyway, I decided to adopt a whole new philosophy (for me) about it - and that was to stop caring whether I got to sleep or not. In turn, that cut out 95% of the fretting and, guess what happened over the course of a few weeks?

 

 

:smitten:

[[El...]]

Thanks FizzleWitch 🎈 I do believe the same as you, and it has worked quite ok, I nearly got my sleep back, I normally go to bed the same time, if I wait to long my brain gets wired up, and that's what's happened New Year's Eve, I had to wait until after all the rockets an noise what's over, and bammm yes my sleep went downhill all night. Yesterday night the sleep anxiety came back again, haven't had it since 3 weeks back, and after a while I just couldn't stand it anymore, and I took 1/4 of a 25 mg atarax, it did take away the edge and I slept a bit. Now I feel so bad I took it 😕 But atarax shouldn't be so dangerous I've heard. It's more that I want my body and brain to work normally🙃

[[te...]]

Thanks FizzleWitch 🎈 I do believe the same as you, and it has worked quite ok, I nearly got my sleep back, I normally go to bed the same time, if I wait to long my brain gets wired up, and that's what's happened New Year's Eve, I had to wait until after all the rockets an noise what's over, and bammm yes my sleep went downhill all night. Yesterday night the sleep anxiety came back again, haven't had it since 3 weeks back, and after a while I just couldn't stand it anymore, and I took 1/4 of a 25 mg atarax, it did take away the edge and I slept a bit. Now I feel so bad I took it 😕 But atarax shouldn't be so dangerous I've heard. It's more that I want my body and brain to work normally🙃

 

The same thing happened to me on NYE! We stayed up with friends til midnight, and I got so tired before that (sleep windows kept reappearing because my body wanted bed) and then I went past my window! Tried going to bed at 1am and was awake til 3am and finally took a unisom. I know what you mean about feeling bad about taking things, but I have gradually taken the pressure off myself, and I know my body has fallen sleep without a med because it still does it, so if I do need a med sometimes, it's okay. Your body and brain will work normally!!

[[El...]]

Yesss that's what it is, sleep windows...  I went to bed 1 am too and same as you didn't sleep before around 3-4 am, and only for 2 hours. Then the wave came next day and I knew it when I went to bed, so then the atarax🙃

What is unisom?

[[te...]]

Yesss that's what it is, sleep windows...  I went to bed 1 am too and same as you didn't sleep before around 3-4 am, and only for 2 hours. Then the wave came next day and I knew it when I went to bed, so then the atarax🙃

What is unisom?

 

It's an OTC sleep aid we have here in the US, it probably has different names other places! Similar to benedryl. For whatever reason I find it works better for me than benedryl, but that's probably in my mind, LOL.