How would you taper or deal with a paradoxical benzo ?

[[li...]]

Per the question.

 

Mixed properties, stimulating, possibly increasing alertness etc.

 

Of course, I've taken it for years and followed bad medical advice ...

[[Bi...]]

Per the question.

 

Mixed properties, stimulating, possibly increasing alertness etc.

 

Of course, I've taken it for years and followed bad medical advice ...

 

Hold and hold and hold until your feeling better.  Do not be afraid to be experimental with the dose.  It's the only way we learn.  9 out of 10 times paradox ends up being 'under medication" or "inter-dose withdrawal"

 

Did you try dosing 4 times a day?

[[xe...]]

Holding never worked for me once I was below a certain dose. I simply never stabilized, and life was super shitty until I managed to get to zero dose and stay there for about a year. Really crazy stuff, paranoid delusions, constant sweating, etc etc. I thought it would never go away, but excluding the tinnitus it all did...

[[Ma...]]

i agree with that.. I would try 2 doses minimum and hold it, then go on..

For me it made no difference - tapering a "normal " or a "paradoxical" one, I had both :ticked off:

 

[[li...]]

Birdman (and a few other people ...),

 

You probably didn't get what I meant when I mentioned the word 'paradoxical'.

 

I've been 'holding' for a long time. It doesn't get better.

As it has all sorts of mixed properties ... I get 'issues' when I try to take clonazepam more than once a day. A classical example (I haven't tried that for years) when dosing twice daily is that the afternoon dose gets more sedating, the evening dose more stimulating ... At one time, I was able to 'break' through that with alcohol to fall asleep ... but that was the past.

If I were to try that now I'd expect all sorts of muscle issues, intestinal issues, and much more 'fun'.

 

And every time I take a dose I get some kind of 'acute' effect. I don't know what that really is, but I suspect that it's related to the drug's unusual properties.

 

Hey, originally I took this stuff as a muscle relaxant and I couldn't take it in the evening because it would 'block' sleep. Now I'm stuck to taking it in the evening.

I don't want to think of even taking it 4 times a day ... I'd need the liquid (some weird absorption stuff seems to be going on), sleep would be a 'problem'. And splitting doses would mean an evening dose cut !

 

What a messy story, right ! I never, ever should have taken this drug and I'd never have had to deal with this.

Now that my health is screwed up it's a complete mess.

 

A neurologist (healthtap) stated that the common strategy was to replace the drug by a different sedating drug. Or maybe I don't remember that right. Anyway ! A mess.

 

Isn't it true that if a drug has paradoxical effects the drug should be discontinued as quickly as possible ? I once told that to a doctor, but that was years ago ...

The worse my health gets, the more low functioning I get the worse the effects of the drug ... while (trying to) taper it gets so much worse, especially under those circumstances ...

I may try a direct taper again, but at a fundamental level this drug does some things it really shouldn't do.

 

Xerxes,

I don't know what benzo(s) you did taper but since clonazepam is both so long acting and it also has a long half life that normally means 'tapering forever'. Xanax can be tapered quickly, whether that's wise is a different matter.

[[xe...]]

Xerxes,

I don't know what benzo(s) you did taper but since clonazepam is both so long acting and it also has a long half life that normally means 'tapering forever'. Xanax can be tapered quickly, whether that's wise is a different matter.

 

I attempted to direct taper both Klonopin and Phenazepam (at different points in time); could not tolerate either, and in both cases crossed over to valium. During the first valium taper I basically stabilized after each cut; the second taper years later was a real mess, and once I was below 5mg/day I never stabilized.

[Guest [Le...]]

 

Isn't it true that if a drug has paradoxical effects the drug should be discontinued as quickly as possible ? I once told that to a doctor, but that was years ago ...

The worse my health gets, the more low functioning I get the worse the effects of the drug ... while (trying to) taper it gets so much worse, especially under those circumstances ...

I may try a direct taper again, but at a fundamental level this drug does some things it really shouldn't do.

 

 

Hi liberty,

 

That was my experience after spending so long in Ativan tolerance WD. The doses got so toxic that they became harshly stimulating, and then everything else that should have been sedating also turned me into an agitated mess.

 

My lower-dose cold turkey has been a relief (as hard as it is) from the acute horror of tolerance WD. The doses had literally become more painful than jumping.

 

Hope your issues start clearing up soon!

Leslie 

[[li...]]

LeslieAsh,

 

I wish I were at that dose. From what I understand, if you take a benzo for the first time and you get a paradoxical reaction you should stop taking it, and never take it again.

 

A told my GP something like that late 2013 ... it was dismissed. Like a lot.

[Guest [Le...]]

LeslieAsh,

 

I wish I were at that dose. From what I understand, if you take a benzo for the first time and you get a paradoxical reaction you should stop taking it, and never take it again.

 

A told my GP something like that late 2013 ... it was dismissed. Like a lot.

 

Wow, so sorry!

 

I honestly don't know if I could have felt OK jumping from a high dose, because I tapered, even though I was acutely sick the whole time. My PDoc didn't believe Ativan was causing my symptoms and said it was just depression. My body knew better.

 

If I had to do it over, understanding now why I could never stabilize while tapering in Tolerance WD, I might have jumped from a higher dose last year. Even during the rapid tapering part I had to use Gabapentin (Neurontin) to prevent seizures, so cold turkey then might have been a better choice than getting as sick as I did while tapering.

 

Hope you are able to get off soon!

 

[[be...]]

I just did a regular taper with no holds. The lower I got, the better I felt. Of course the Valium helped, but I know that you can't take that.

[[li...]]

Any suggestions ? I hate giving diazepam another try ... But I can't stay on this crap forever.

 

This would typically be a case of 'too little, too late', 'the right benzo isn't around', 'doc refused to prescribe Lyrica or gabapentin', 'in this country you'll get much better treatment for heroin w/d'.

 

They don't do a real detox here, just fast tapers with diazepam. They don't like Lyrica, gabapentin, pheno, anticonvulsants. But then, they hardly know the high potency benzos.

 

From what I gather, high potency benzos as a group bind to different parts of the brain, up to a point. For example, brain stem. Where is the lorazepam XL, or something else ?

I think that lorazepam really kindled me. Recovering from that ?

 

Are there no sources for issues like these ?

[[be...]]

Any suggestions ? I hate giving diazepam another try ... But I can't stay on this crap forever.

 

This would typically be a case of 'too little, too late', 'the right benzo isn't around', 'doc refused to prescribe Lyrica or gabapentin', 'in this country you'll get much better treatment for heroin w/d'.

 

They don't do a real detox here, just fast tapers with diazepam. They don't like Lyrica, gabapentin, pheno, anticonvulsants. But then, they hardly know the high potency benzos.

 

From what I gather, high potency benzos as a group bind to different parts of the brain, up to a point. For example, brain stem. Where is the lorazepam XL, or something else ?

I think that lorazepam really kindled me. Recovering from that ?

 

Are there no sources for issues like these ?

 

Hi Liberty: I think you have run out of the most typical solutions, so do you have anything to lose with another, small, Valium try? I don't know where you live but those docs should know about those other medications you mentioned.

 

Betsy

[[li...]]

Docs, especially GPs, really dislike prescribing drugs off label. Lyrica and gabapentin are basically for neuropathic pain only. Oh, they don't even 'do' pheno detoxes.

 

My GP is particulary unpleasant.

[[be...]]

They do pheno detoxes here, so hop on a plane.. Lyrica seems to help a lot, but I would never take it myself.........

[[li...]]

Well, I could do that. But I don't think a short pheno detox would be better than a C/T. Plus, going back by plane in a C/T ...

 

Aside from other issues, low dose diazepam seems to block some of the effects of clonazepam. Causing muscle rigidity, for example.

 

I'm not good with pills ...

[[be...]]

But does Valium counteract the paradoxical effects of K? It's supposed to be a muscle relaxer.

[[li...]]

So is K ...

 

Small added doses of diazepam do NOT counter paradoxical effects of clonazepam. Switching drugs is a different matter altogether. Straight switch to diazepam, diazepam taken during the day is still more sedating than D taken in the evening. Of course, I don't know what that would be like after many weeks/months. And it takes about two weeks to get K out of the body ...

[[be...]]

Well, the Valium did counteract my paradoxical K.........It kept my sanity. But I did it gradually over 4 months.