Would like some feedback on taper response

[[Da...]]

On February 4 of this year I went from 7 mg of Valium to 6 mg.  Within the first two weeks I had 4 really bad days with mega symptoms and no appetite, then ups and downs for two weeks, then felt really good for the first 9 days of March.  Then I had ups and downs for two weeks, felt better and made a cut on March 28 going down to 5 mg. Next day felt terrible and for a two week period felt terrible for 11/14 days.  Then I felt quite good for twelve days to be followed by 5 terrible days and now 5 days of ups and downs, including two pretty good days. 

 

Questions:  Is it a good sign that I have had some long good periods?  Am I tapering too fast, because the down times have knocked me off my feet?  Any opinions on whether I should continue cutting 1 mg. every two months, cut a smaller amount every two months or just do a rapid taper to get this drug behind me?  I am working with a doc who would prefer I make 1 mg. cuts or go faster.  I would like to go faster but I don't think I can tolerate symptoms any worse than what I've had!

[[Gr...]]

I've been doing 5mg cuts every 10-13 days from 9mg down to 5.5 currently. I have good days and days that aren't so good but they aren't terrible. I was doing 1mg cuts every two weeks initially, then felt pretty bad on the 10 to 9mg cut so I switched to smaller cuts so the symptoms aren't as bad. You could try making .5mg cuts every month instead of 1mg cuts every two months, the smaller cuts may lessen the extremes of the bad days.

[Guest [Jo...]]

On February 4 of this year I went from 7 mg of Valium to 6 mg.  Within the first two weeks I had 4 really bad days with mega symptoms and no appetite, then ups and downs for two weeks, then felt really good for the first 9 days of March.  Then I had ups and downs for two weeks, felt better and made a cut on March 28 going down to 5 mg. Next day felt terrible and for a two week period felt terrible for 11/14 days.  Then I felt quite good for twelve days to be followed by 5 terrible days and now 5 days of ups and downs, including two pretty good days. 

 

Questions:  Is it a good sign that I have had some long good periods?  Am I tapering too fast, because the down times have knocked me off my feet?  Any opinions on whether I should continue cutting 1 mg. every two months, cut a smaller amount every two months or just do a rapid taper to get this drug behind me?  I am working with a doc who would prefer I make 1 mg. cuts or go faster.  I would like to go faster but I don't think I can tolerate symptoms any worse than what I've had!

You made a big cut going from 7mg valium to 6mg valium.

 

You could go back upto a dose you last felt functional at (ie, not 100% but bearable) wait a couple of days till you feel better again, and make a smaller cut.

I'm not a fan of cut and hold tapers, I've seen too many people's cuts turn into bumps and a long time suffering when benzo free. Alll that wasted life, sad.

 

The ups and downs are the GABA receptors trying to recover, but too much valium is being taken away from them, so they're giving you a bumpy ride.

 

You'll get your good days, (windows) but then you'll get your bad days, or periods (walls) and it'll all become a bit dis-heartening.

 

In my opinion you are tapering too fast, and cutting as planned will just result in a longer period of pain, post-valium.

 

Don't do a rapid taper even though you want the drug behind you.

You have to be in control of your taper, not your doc, cos you carry your body around with you everyday, whereas your doc processes loads of them.

 

If I were you, the quickest way to get totally well and live life again, I would go back up to a dose you last felt good at.

 

Work out a daily cut, a 'test cut', give it between 1 and 21 days, depending on your lag time (lag time=amount of days between a cut and appearance of new symptoms, or reappearance of old), either raise the size off the cut if you're still feeling good, because there is no point in daily titration if the cuts are too small, OR, if you start noticing symptoms, immediately reduce the size of your cut, and go back to the dose you were on, when you felt good, usually, the amount of days ago that your lag time is.

 

For instance, if you start noticing symptoms on the 10th may, and you first started cutting on the 3rd of may, then 7 days would be your lag time.

 

This way, as you go down your taper, you can adjust the cuts as your body guides you, and it works out quicker overall than a cut and hold taper.

 

If you plot a cut and hold taper on a graph, the graph is really long, and there are steps or jagged lines on the graph, whereas, if you plot a daily titration on a graph, provided you adjust the cuts upwardly or downwardly, the line on the graph would be a nice smooth curve.

 

[[Da...]]

I have talked to this doc about going with smaller cuts, but he says I should tolerate 1 mg. cuts.  I have asked him to consider use of liquid valium to make small cuts easier and he just gets frustrated with me!  I have also asked him about liquid titration and he says he's seen people do it and it doesn't work.

 

Maybe I will just have to have my hissy fit (nicely) with him and put my foot down.  I don't get why doctors are so uncooperative with this process.  I also don't get why there are not docs with real knowledge of this process to help.  Okay, whining over.

 

When you talk about daily cuts, what do you mean?  Are you cutting like 1 milliliter  daily or something?  Can you explain that better?  Thanks

[Guest [Jo...]]

I have talked to this doc about going with smaller cuts, but he says I should tolerate 1 mg. cuts.  I have asked him to consider use of liquid valium to make small cuts easier and he just gets frustrated with me!  I have also asked him about liquid titration and he says he's seen people do it and it doesn't work.

 

Maybe I will just have to have my hissy fit (nicely) with him and put my foot down.  I don't get why doctors are so uncooperative with this process.  I also don't get why there are not docs with real knowledge of this process to help.  Okay, whining over.

 

When you talk about daily cuts, what do you mean?  Are you cutting like 1 milliliter  daily or something?  Can you explain that better?  Thanks

Hi

Your doctor is talking b0ll0cks, he is not in your body and he is clueless.

He sounds arrogant to suggest a 1mg cut in a drug he demonstrates that he knows nothing about, otherwise he would be advising you along the same lines as I am.

I don't mean to sound boastful, someone else, or more than one person has taught me what I know about benzo tapers.

 

I would choose a different doctor. He sounds hostile. A hostile doctor is a burnt out doctor who is pissed off and tired, and not at his best to help honour the hypocratic oath he took when he became a doctor.

Showing you his frustration as a doctor, demonstrates immaturity to me.

 

He's seen people do it and it doesn't work?

Many different people have many different types of reaction to benzo withdrawal, some good, some not so good, I guess you could put everyones experiences on a spectrum.

 

Can you not find a benzo-wise doctor. There was a list on these boards of benzo wise doctors in the states, you might be lucky, if you go over and have a look, you might find one, even if it means travelling as a benzo wise doctor is what you need., or at leas one that is mature enogh to realise, that even as a doctor, he will learn from his patients.

You might like to make a thread asking if anyone knows of any benzo wise doctors near you? these boards have been going a while so more chance of people knowing a benzo-wise doc, or at least, one open minded enough to listen to you and show you he will do you no harm.

My GP called me an "expert patient" I think, sarcastically meant as a know it all, as I showed her that I had learnt about gaba receptors etc

If she is so insecure she cannot handle a merre pleb patient daring to study subjects beyond what she was trained then maybe she shouldnt be a doctor, but most doctors have big egos, which are quite fragile, when you get the odd one who doesn''t it's a breath of fresh air.

My daily cuts, plot an ashton stepped taper on a graph, and the graph is long, and jagged, plus withdrawal pain after 0mg has been reached.

Plot a daily taper, provided it's done right, on a graph and you get a smooth curve, with baseline feeling at 0mg.

I'm only back on valium because my baseline is depressed, tearful, angry, overwhelmed, anxious and a whole host of overhwelmnig negative emotions, and no medical professional has ever offered a diagnosis for all the suffering I feel, and the annoyance in others at the symptoms I manifest to them.

I started popping zopiclone and got carried away, so transferred to valium, just started microtaper yesterday, test cut, will report on blog how it goes.

 

 

 

 

 

[[Da...]]

Thank you Journey2.  I agree with what you say, but I have struggled to find a "benzo-wise" doctor and I have looked!  This one does work with me and tries things I request, but he does seem to have a limited view of things!  I will put my foot down with him next appointment and continue looking for someone else!  Thanks for your wisdom!

 

 

[[Sh...]]

Ill have to disagree with journey here. If you are getting periods of good days then that is great. I am doing cut and hold. The only problem is if you cut too much. Everything depends on your body. I encountered worse problems when I swapped to the daily liquid taper. As symptoms were mild but constant. I prefer the feeling of feeling crap for a couple of weeks but then getting better and stabilising. I was able to cut large chunks at the start and recover well. But now im adjusting. My biggest cut was 2.5mg v at the beginning, my last one was 0.4mg.

[[Da...]]

Journy, if you have any ideas how I can find a better doctor, please let me know.  I will post a message.

[[Ke...]]

I agree with Shamo and not Journey to a degree.

 

Try not to updose. Slow down if you need to but don't go back. It may not work well for you.

[[Mi...]]

As far as finding a better doctor, I can't help. But I'm a microtaper fan, as cut and hold was too rough for me. I'm at 7 mg. Valium now (down a year ago from 17 mg. Valium and some Ativan - I've gotten off the Ativan). I get liquid Valium (diazepam) from a compound pharmacy. I use 5 mg. and 2 mg. pills for part of my dose, then lower the liquid .025 per night. This takes me down by .75 mg. per month. VERY slow, but I have a lot of sx and can't stand the panic and derealization if I go faster. When I get to 5 mg. V I may have to go slower. We'll see.

 

Good luck with the doctor issue. Fortunately, my family doctor and smart psychologist are working together with me on this. The psychiatrist who got me into this mess and go to hell.

 

MirandaJane

[Guest [Jo...]]

Thank you Journey2.  I agree with what you say, but I have struggled to find a "benzo-wise" doctor and I have looked!  This one does work with me and tries things I request, but he does seem to have a limited view of things!  I will put my foot down with him next appointment and continue looking for someone else!  Thanks for your wisdom!

You are welcome

I took a print off the ashton manual and highlighted the important bits about beng in control of our own taper, etc, so the doctor could save time.

She wouldnt read it from me, but when my drug worker gave her it she read it, and got on board.

It's good if you have an assertive streak, so long as thier fragile egos aint bruised hhahahahhahahahha

I'm not assertive at all.

At the first hint of hostility from a doctor, my mind just goes blank, I get really easily intimidated, even though I know my benzo knowledge is way superior to theirs.(exluding those doctors who have studied benzos)

[Guest [Jo...]]

Ill have to disagree with journey here. If you are getting periods of good days then that is great. I am doing cut and hold. The only problem is if you cut too much. Everything depends on your body. I encountered worse problems when I swapped to the daily liquid taper. As symptoms were mild but constant. I prefer the feeling of feeling crap for a couple of weeks but then getting better and stabilising. I was able to cut large chunks at the start and recover well. But now im adjusting. My biggest cut was 2.5mg v at the beginning, my last one was 0.4mg.

You never kmow, if you started your daily titration from too symptomatic a place, you're just chasing symptoms all the way down and it wont work, you have be on a sufficient dose so you are comfy, not 100% as these benzos have injured our nervous system, but stable enough to function, and if done right, the remaining residual minor symptoms that are left are tapered away using the daily cuts.

I had to up my dose before starting my taper.

I'm tapering pregab and valium daily so I have to keep updating my sig.

[[Sh...]]

Yeah...when I started I was symptom free. I was tapering too much each day, but even IF I went slower I cant see it being symptom free. The symptoms just changed. Cut and hold gives me a big whack of dark depression, but then I can feel it lift. Wheras the daily kept the depression away, but lessened it into constant anxiety. I just can't fathom have symptoms all the time, even if they are mild. At least with cut and hold I know how long Ive gotta hang on for before feeling better.

[Guest [Jo...]]

Yeah...when I started I was symptom free. I was tapering too much each day, but even IF I went slower I cant see it being symptom free. The symptoms just changed. Cut and hold gives me a big whack of dark depression, but then I can feel it lift. Wheras the daily kept the depression away, but lessened it into constant anxiety. I just can't fathom have symptoms all the time, even if they are mild. At least with cut and hold I know how long Ive gotta hang on for before feeling better.

Aw sorry to hear that, but at least you have found a tapering way you are comfy with.