Using rats and snails in psychiatric drug testing

[[La...]]

I came across these recent studies in which the researchers are testing psychiatric drugs -- in this case, Prozac (fluoxetine) and Effexor (venlaxafine) -- on rats and snails. Does anyone know the scientific reasoning for doing such studies at this stage of the game? Looking for new uses for old drugs? Looking for new side effects? Why rats and snails? Can rat and snail behaviour be directly connected with that of human beings?

 

As a layperson who's interested in how these drugs are tested, approved, prescribed and marketed, I'd like to know. It seems like it all starts with the lowly rat and snail.

 

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22059800

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25481651

 

 

[[Mo...]]

I honestly don't know and just thinking about it makes me want to vomit.

They say Benzos have their place in medicine , i don't care , this junk

should be only be used at Hospitals.

 

Doctors should be banned from prescribing this crap, its criminal !

[[La...]]

It really makes me wonder, since, last time I looked, human beings have highly-complex brains that are affected by many, many factors -- genetic, environmental, experiential, etc., etc. Is the rat's anxiety or depression like ours?

 

Anyway, I think the little rats should get counseling instead of drugs. Isn't that a better option?! Let's ask the rat!

[[Mo...]]

You know Lapis, after my detox experience i even feel sorry for rats and snails.

By God , no leaving creature deserves those experiments.

[[La...]]

Morreweg, I agree! Some of these studies are mind-boggling. When I look up recent studies on benzodiazepines, it seems they're still looking at how these meds make people fall and injure themselves, or have car accidents. Do we really need more testing to come up with these sorts of statistics? Do we not know that already? Couldn't the money be better spent elsewhere, e.g. helping those already affected by the drugs?

 

 

[[Mo...]]

Morreweg, I agree! Some of these studies are mind-boggling. When I look up recent studies on benzodiazepines, it seems they're still looking at how these meds make people fall and injure themselves, or have car accidents. Do we really need more testing to come up with these sorts of statistics? Do we not know that already? Couldn't the money be better spent elsewhere, e.g. helping those already affected by the drugs?

 

So true Lapis, I'm convinced they know how people are suffering, they know people die

due to this shit. Something is very very wrong, we should get compensation

from those Pharma industries, bloody Mafia .

[[La...]]

What this issue highlights the length of time required to get any action on any systemic issues like this one. First you have to study it, and study it, and study it. Then, you can discuss ideas about what to do. And then you can do that some more. Then, possibly, you can make recommendations. And then, maybe, those recommendations will be put in place and, lo and behold, something will happen. Maybe!

 

Until that time, I think we all have to be as proactive as possible.

[[lo...]]

Hey, no one told me I should be crawling!!

 

At 225 mg effexor per day, I am bound to be the fastest crawler on BB.

 

Wheeeeeeee!!

 

Off to the bathroom, folks,  :yippee: :yippee:

 

The best way to go.  :2funny: :2funny:

 

Hugs

 

LF 

 

 

[[lo...]]

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/snail-race-8201505.jpg

 

First to the finish line!!

[[La...]]

Great stuff, LF! I like your wheels!

[[xe...]]

It's a conundrum. Studying drugs in animals raises ethical concerns, and there are always obvious concerns about how well rat studies relate to humans.

 

That said, the alternative is to just not do the research, and personally I'm opposed to that. I don't like animal brutality, but I also don't like the existence of horrifying viruses and other pathogens in the world. For all the problems with benzos, SSRIs, etc, it's easy to find obvious ways in which we benefit from pharmaceutical research. Benzo w/d was horrible and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but I'd rather go through it all again than get polio or something -- and polio was super common until vaccines made it more or less non-existent in the developed world.

 

We would not have developed efficient treatments for polio, melanomas, and various other things without brutally killing a lot of rats and snails in the process. Like I said, I'm conflicted about this, but I'd rather have a bunch of dead rats than polio, so...

[[La...]]

For me, it's less about the animal cruelty issue that about the value when it comes to psychiatric medications specifically. I'm just not seeing how the snail or the rat is a good test subject for an antidepressant, since human beings are so complicated.

[[xe...]]

For me, it's less about the animal cruelty issue that about the value when it comes to psychiatric medications specifically. I'm just not seeing how the snail or the rat is a good test subject for an antidepressant, since human beings are so complicated.

 

this is definitely valid -- we understand very little about how human minds work. What is the good alternative, though? I don't think that trying to stop research really works. So, what I'd advocate, is just being a little more cautious about trying to calculate human effects based on animal results. Rat studies are really good at telling us what dose of, say, prozac, will kill a human -- but really bad at telling us what dose of prozac will make a human less depressed, or what the side effects and downsides of doing that are.

[[La...]]

I just realized that I didn't put the rat study in! Sorry about that! Here it is:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25485962

 

There's the use of the "forced swim test", which I guess is supposed to make the little rats very depressed.  At no point in this abstract do they refer to connections to human beings, so that's why I find such studies confusing. These meds have been out for many, many years already, and it's unclear if they're still trying to determine whether they work or not from such a study.

 

Anyway, unlike the rats, I like swimming! I wish I could go swimming right now, but unfortunately, these medications have made me so dizzy that I'm unable to go out and do those normal things. I wonder if they asked the rats if they felt dizzy or how they felt when they went into withdrawal.....  :-)

[[be...]]

I honestly don't know and just thinking about it makes me want to vomit.

They say Benzos have their place in medicine , i don't care , this junk

should be only be used at Hospitals.

 

Doctors should be banned from prescribing this crap, its criminal !

 

Here, here!