Tapering too slow - could it negatively affect healing?

[[ta...]]

Is it possible that if a taper is dragged on for a long time (~3yrs), the receptors will have a harder time coming back than if the taper were shorter?

[[Di...]]

I've always heard there is no such thing as a taper that is too slow.

[[Ba...]]

I too have heard the same thing. I do also share your fears though. I fear that by dragging my taper longer I am getting my body more and more accustomed to these poisons.

[[Di...]]

I suppose the time you take to taper, whether slow or not, is relevant to your dose. I was on 5mg of valium and I took 22 months to taper. Slow for some maybe, but it was the amount of time I needed, and I know I couldn't have done it any faster.

 

I'm very glad I made the decision to daily taper according to my symptoms, so I could still maintain a relatively normal, fairly symptom free, life. I am now almost 3 months off and I feel great. I seem to be well on my way to being fully healed, and I feel that's because I was able to do a lot of healing as my dose was coming down.

 

So a 3 year taper, or even longer, wouldn't be out of the question at all for someone who was on a higher dose than I was. However, it could be possible to drag on a taper longer than you need to, but I honestly don't think that many people would do that. Most people want to get off their benzo as fast as possible, and sometimes much faster than their body will allow, and of course that can create a lot of problems.

[[lo...]]

I read the same I have been on xanax for 13 years and my highest does was 8-10mgs a day. I just started my taped and am worried I will go to slow, but I also don't want to push myself and cause damage to my healing it took me 13 years to get this tolerance I don't thinking getting off of these will be something I can do very fast.

[[ta...]]

Diaz-pam, did you feel progressively better during your taper?

 

I'm concerned about my recovery. At present, I'm almost at the end of my taper that is going on 3 yrs and have been feeling progressively worse.

 

Thanks.

[[be...]]

I've always heard there is no such thing as a taper that is too slow.

 

Oscar?

[[lo...]]

Diaz-pam, did you feel progressively better during your taper?

 

I'm concerned about my recovery. At present, I'm almost at the end of my taper that is going on 3 yrs and have been feeling progressively worse.

 

Thanks.

 

Might be withdraws making you feel crappy? maybe once you are off them and the withdraws go away you will start to feel better? I hope you do.

[[Di...]]

Diaz-pam, did you feel progressively better during your taper?

 

I'm concerned about my recovery. At present, I'm almost at the end of my taper that is going on 3 yrs and have been feeling progressively worse. What was the totally amount of valium you started your taper at? Even if it's been 3 years, if your dose was fairly high, then you might have brought your dose down too quickly.

 

Thanks.

 

I get asked that question a lot, and I don't actually have a black and white answer. Some people say they feel progressively better as their dose gets lower, but for me, if I started tapering too quickly, all my s/x would be exactly the same - massive insomnia, anxiety, depression and headaches. That's why I had to just keep tapering at a rate that kept all those symptoms at bay, because I knew that if I pushed myself they would all return and I wasn't prepared to tolerate any of them. I wanted to be able to live a normal life because I needed to work, and I also wanted to be able to socialise with friends, and not feel like my whole life had to be put on hold just because I was tapering off a benzo.

 

If you are feeling progressively worse, then it could be the way you are tapering, because when s/x ramp up there is often something going wrong with how you are cutting.  What was the total dose you started your taper at? Even if it's been 3 years, if your dose was fairly high when you started, maybe you've brought it down too quickly.

[[Cl...]]

These replies do explain my sympthoms! Before finding BBs my taper was very fast!, and i have to recognize that I need to stabilize before my next cut. I want to get rid of Rivotril as soon as possible, but I have to work,as,Díaz-Pam says. So, after reading you all in this post I am going to take things easier. Because even I was not feeling that bad during the first month,last week was the worst. Thank you BBs, I promise to myself that my next cut will be in at least more than 3 weeks, despite the fact I love the "cut days".

[[mr...]]

I began my taper on November 14th, 2012 from a starting dose of only 0.25mg of alprazolam (5mg valium/diazepam equivalent).  I am just finishing my taper in the next couple of weeks.  From what I've seen thus far in my taper, I am among the slowest of taperers.  There are a couple of other buddies who have chosen to slowly taper like I have also, so I am not alone of course   I am honestly undecided on my thoughts regarding how slow I moved.  I will relay to you my personal experiences in how I felt all the way to where I'm at today, and you may feel free to use this information however you see fit for your own personal benefit.  Of course, we are all different, and there is no way to "guarantee" how you will feel during your own taper.  You may do it exactly as I have, but have different symptoms and ending results.  I say all that to say, please feel free to make your own decisions based on what you believe is best for you

 

First, my benzodiazepine history.  Prior to beginning my taper in November of 2012, I had used 0.25mg "PRN" (or, as needed).  This began in June of 2010.  From the first pill, I had rebound symptoms (panic, anxiety, nausea, etc) but did not realize it at the time.  I continued usage on a minimal basis (3-4 times per week).  At the time, my "interdose withdrawal" wouldn't begin until 1-3 days after taking the last pill.  Considering how quickly I developed symptoms, I would assume that my system did not "take" very well to the drug (or "took" too well to it, however you want to say it ).  Anyways, these symptoms grew slowly and steadily over time, sort-of "rooting" deeper and deeper.  From January 2012 to October 2012, I had a pretty rough time -- this was when tolerance withdrawal, interdose withdrawal, etc began to really become troublesome.  I had lots of digestive symptoms (nausea especially), sugar sensitivity, fatigue, low tolerance to stress, depression, etc.  Lots of medical tests were run to try and figure out what was going on, and all of them came back normal.  By the grace of God and an internet search by a thin thread, I discovered that I was in tolerance to the alprazolam.  I discovered this on October 31st, 2012.  On November 1st, I began taking 0.25mg daily to stabilize.  Over the course of the next two weeks, I stabilized and spread out my daily dosage to four different dosings, every six hours (to eliminate interdose withdrawal).  I then began my taper on November 14th, 2012 using the water titration method.

 

From November 2012 through December 2013, I was stabilized and functioning moderately well, at an average of 80% well.  November 2013, I noticed that things were getting a bit difficult and in December of 2013, I had a run-in with symptoms kicking up and in kinda "full blast".  At that time, I had tapered to 0.06mg of alprazolam.  I had moved from 0.25mg to 0.06mg over the course of a year's time (so, I had removed about 76% of my daily intake of the drug).  I held for a six week stretch, into the end of January, in order to regain some stability.  I did stabilize again, but did not get back to my old "baseline" pre-December.  I resumed my taper at the end of January, and found that I was having a decent amount of difficulty making cuts at this low dosage.  I could feel just about every cut, even though they were very small micro-cuts of a water titration.  I decided to continue onward anyways, but just move very slowly through it.  From 0.06mg until about 0.025mg (from February until around June of 2014), "feeling" the cuts began to diminish.  And my symptoms continued to get harder and worse, the lower I went (unfortunately), cycling harshly through intense waves and partial windows. I also had a handful of windows during this time period, too, where I would feel closer to "me" than I had in a long time -- like the "fog" was lifting, and "I" was returning.  So, as hard as it was (and it was HARD), it wasn't all misery and horrid -- albeit a good portion of it was.  Anyways, at 0.02mg was when I experienced my worst month.  I do not believe that this had anything to do with cuts anymore, but was just part of "post-withdrawal" for me (even though I was still technically taking the benzo, I believe that I'd dipped below my "effective dose" a while before this, and was now technically in "post-withdrawal" symptoms mode).  I held for that month anyways, just for mental comfort (just in case symptoms were still tied to taper), and resumed my taper.  Once below 0.02mg, things have begun to improve -- again, I believe, independent from my cuts at this point.  I am currently at 0.01mg (moving to 0.008mg tomorrow), and looking forward to being done very soon.

 

My thoughts on my experiences?  Well, I can assure you that when December 2013 happened, I was definitely in shock and denial.  I had assumed that, because I had moved so slowly and carefully, that I would have no issues and have a relatively easy withdrawal.  By the time I reached June-July-August of this year, I was downright angry, tired, and more than frustrated.  I definitely thought I "deserved" to have an easy-going withdrawal.  After all, hadn't I done things "right" all along?  Didn't I move very slowly and gently, in order to avoid harsh symptoms?  I was quite angry that I was having such a hard time -- because I didn't "deserve" it, you know?  If I'd have cold-turkied, well sure!  But to slowly and reasonably and sensibly and gently taper, only to get hit just as hard (if not harder) than many who had rapid-tapered or cold-turkied?  Absurd!

 

But I came to realize a few things.  One was this: To me, it made sense that A + B would have to equal C (slow taper = easy & gentle symptoms / fast taper = hard & rough symptoms).  However, there is obviously things that we do not understand about the drug's mechanisms of action in the brain, as well as a person's individual genetics and brain chemistry.  Maybe symptoms have more to do with the percentage of drug removed in combination of the speed of the taper.  This would make sense, then, why I experienced a more difficult time in the bottom half of my taper.  As you move lower in dose, your cut size remains the same (i.e. 0.0625mg cut), but the percentage of total daily dosage cut will increase.  So perhaps by moving slowly as I did, I just continued to "adjust" to my "new" daily dose -- until my cuts eventually became to big of a percentage of my daily dose.  Another thought I had was this:  maybe each person has their own "effective dose" so to speak -- that is, sort-of a "point of no return" where the dose becomes too low for your body to recognize/use it any longer.  For some, maybe that is at 4mg of valium/diazepam.  For others, perhaps it is much lower -- like at 0.75mg diazepam/valium.  Whenever that "effective dose" is passed by, the body enters into its "acute withdrawal" phase -- or, the roughest time period of symptoms in withdrawal.  For some, this happens in the upper half of their taper.  For others, it happens in the bottom half.  This may explain why some have troubles in tolerance and the beginnings of their tapers but feel better and better the lower in dosage they go, while others have little troubles at the beginnings of their taper, but experience difficulties towards the bottom portion of their tapers.  Do I believe that the speed of the taper plays a part?  I do Over all, I believe the "sweet spot" in taper speed will vary from person to person, which probably has more to do with their pain tolerance and symptom load than anything else -- and only the taperer will be able to determine what they feel comfortable doing.  I personally think that "too quick" can happen, and probably happens more often than "too slowly", but I do think that both can occur -- I do think that mine was, perhaps, a little too slow.  What I mean was, I don't think there was any way for me to avoid an "acute" period -- I was operating under the assumption that the slower I moved, the better I'd feel as I got down in dose.  But, if there is an "effective dose" to pass through for all of us, then moving slowly through it may help to minimize symptoms, but it wouldn't avoid having an acute period of some sort.  If that makes sense   All just theory and my opinion of course!

 

I must reiterate again that this is only my opinions and musings -- and mere ones at that, gang.  I do not carry any sort of professional or medical background like our buddy Parker, or have the scientific understandings of things like our buddy Perseverance.  And, not everyone "fits" into any one perfect "box" of withdrawal theory -- the road is individual to us all.  Thankfully, the end of the journey spells h-e-a-l-e-d for us all -- and that's the part that matters most   For those that have suffered long and hard, you deserve it most.  And when it comes, it will be sweet as honey.

 

I hope this helps those of you wondering about a long and slow taper.  All in all, I don't think I would change anything about what I did.  It did lead down a rougher and harder path than I anticipated, and it is possible that suffering would've been less on another path...but it doesn't matter at this point.  I have learned much, and I truly believe that in the end I will be grateful for every last bit of my path and journey, just as it was.  Whatever path you chose for you, I hope the best for you all the way to zero mg and beyond   Take care buddies,

 

Mrs.

[[mr...]]

I will also come back and post updates on how I feel post-taper Who knows, maybe I'll have some different feedback once I'm off the drug entirely!!

 

Take care buddies,

 

Mrs.

[[ta...]]

@[mr...]

 

Btw, your writing is very clear so I hope you feel good about your high-level of cognitive functioning

[[Cl...]]

Very nice and profound msj Mrs! You sound healed to me! Congratulations! Keep us posted please. Very interesting hypothesis of an expert!

[[Ra...]]

Thank you for that clear history of your taper and thoughts.  I have wondered since the top part of my taper has been relatively easy compared to some, if I will have a harder time at the end.  God help me, I hope not.  I'm still on the .0625 every 14 days reduction, but still at a very high dose.  Still almost 2mg, but I have dropped my dose by 1/3, so I'm happy about that.  I do think that people heal as they get lower in dose and if they are going to have an acute period, I don't think there's much that can be done about it.  Such as you relay, you had a slow and careful taper.  I think I am too.  I started out at 3mg and decided to do a flat .0625mg reduction every 14 days, so WAY less than the 10% Ashton recommendation.  I was so scared to start since I'd had a 3 month acute period that I wanted to start very small.  I realize that if I keep this schedule, as I go down, the percentage of total dose reduction will increase dramatically in the low doses.  I will have to wait and see how that goes, but if need be will either have to go to liquid titration or some other route.

 

Do I believe that a taper can be drug out too long?  I don't think for anyone seriously wanting to get off that's possible.  I am a firm believer that we do heal and re-regulate as we get lower in dose.  For some that brings on more and stronger symptoms like Mrs.  For some, things get better.  It's Russion Roulette when it comes which will be anyone's fate.  There are stories we hear too that there are folks who can taper for a short time and have very little w/d sxs.  So that is always a possibility (best care scenario).  I think it's possible that at the end someone might drag it out a bit for fear of the post jump experience, but I think most are so anxious to end their taper,  that doesn't happen often.

 

These are just my thoughts from reading a lot on this forum over the last 10 months or so.  I wouldn't worry about taking too long to tapre.  I think there's more danger in rushing than taking a little longer.

 

:smitten:

 

Bunny

[[Di...]]

I will also come back and post updates on how I feel post-taper Who knows, maybe I'll have some different feedback once I'm off the drug entirely!!

 

Take care buddies,

 

Mrs.

 

It's so good to hear that you're so close to finishing. Timewise we're probably pretty similar for an equivalent dose. I started my taper from 5mg V a litte bit before you and I finished it at the end of July. So we're both turtle taperers and there's nothing wrong with that at all. I am totally confident that when you are finished you will be well on your way to being 100% in no time.

[[mr...]]

@mrsalw - the effective dose theory you suggest makes a lot of sense to me. And looking back, I think that when I crossed that point (~4mg valium), I would've been better off to go a little faster than I have.

 

Btw, your writing is very clear so I hope you feel good about your high-level of cognitive functioning

 

Thank you for the compliment, taperman Things are improving all the time

 

How are you feeling/doing in the lower doses? I hope you are doing quite well

 

Thanks again for your kind words Take care,

 

Mrs.

[[mr...]]

Very nice and profound msj Mrs! You sound healed to me! Congratulations! Keep us posted please. Very interesting hypothesis of an expert!

 

Thanks Clona It looks like your first cut was a biggie, huh? Have you tried holding for an extended period if time to regain stability? While tapering, I would take a 4-6 week holding periods about every 40-50 days (I water tapered similar to daily cuts) in order to sorta "reset" my body towards tapering, and to help regain stability Worked like a charm most of the way down Are you feeling well? I hope so There certainly is no race to zero mg when it comes to benzo withdrawal, that's for sure! Anyways, I hope you are feeling good! Sleep well and G*d bless

 

Mrs.

[[ME...]]

Taperman,

 

In may opinion, your brain adjusted slowly in your slow taper.  Your brain was able to adjust, continuously, that means you did not lost your ability to revert to natural state.

 

MEexpat

[[mr...]]

I will also come back and post updates on how I feel post-taper Who knows, maybe I'll have some different feedback once I'm off the drug entirely!!

 

Take care buddies,

 

Mrs.

 

It's so good to hear that you're so close to finishing. Timewise we're probably pretty similar for an equivalent dose. I started my taper from 5mg V a litte bit before you and I finished it at the end of July. So we're both turtle taperers and there's nothing wrong with that at all. I am totally confident that when you are finished you will be well on your way to being 100% in no time.

 

Thanks, Pam How did you feel throughout your experience (pretaper, during taper, and now post taper)? When was your most "acute" period of symptoms? Or were you able to avoid an acute phase of symptoms entirely? I think that a benzo's half-life might be one other possible major "player" in symptoms and evading a possible acute phase. I've mentioned that I probably wouldn't change anything about my taper. But I have often strongly wondered if I would've had an easier time in the lower doses had I switched over to valium/diazepam to begin with. Ha, in fact, in my toughest times in withdrawal, I often fantasized about how much better it'd been on valium As if it were a *for sure" thing Ah well. I'll never know

 

Its nice to officially "meet" you on here! I've read some of your posts, and heard much about your legendary taper techniques! You've helped many on here So grateful you're here I hope you are doing very well, and I am looking forward to hearing more about your own personal experiences! Rest good tonight, buddy

 

Mrs.

[[mr...]]

Thank you for that clear history of your taper and thoughts.  I have wondered since the top part of my taper has been relatively easy compared to some, if I will have a harder time at the end.  God help me, I hope not.  I'm still on the .0625 every 14 days reduction, but still at a very high dose.  Still almost 2mg, but I have dropped my dose by 1/3, so I'm happy about that.  I do think that people heal as they get lower in dose and if they are going to have an acute period, I don't think there's much that can be done about it.  Such as you relay, you had a slow and careful taper.  I think I am too.  I started out at 3mg and decided to do a flat .0625mg reduction every 14 days, so WAY less than the 10% Ashton recommendation.  I was so scared to start since I'd had a 3 month acute period that I wanted to start very small.  I realize that if I keep this schedule, as I go down, the percentage of total dose reduction will increase dramatically in the low doses.  I will have to wait and see how that goes, but if need be will either have to go to liquid titration or some other route.

 

Do I believe that a taper can be drug out too long?  I don't think for anyone seriously wanting to get off that's possible.  I am a firm believer that we do heal and re-regulate as we get lower in dose.  For some that brings on more and stronger symptoms like Mrs.  For some, things get better.  It's Russion Roulette when it comes which will be anyone's fate.  There are stories we hear too that there are folks who can taper for a short time and have very little w/d sxs.  So that is always a possibility (best care scenario).  I think it's possible that at the end someone might drag it out a bit for fear of the post jump experience, but I think most are so anxious to end their taper,  that doesn't happen often.

 

These are just my thoughts from reading a lot on this forum over the last 10 months or so.  I wouldn't worry about taking too long to tapre.  I think there's more danger in rushing than taking a little longer.

 

:smitten:

 

Bunny

 

((((Bunny)))))!!!!! So good to cross paths again, after all this time Also, so great to see you are doing so well You communicate your thoughts so well, and what you say makes a lot of sense I think that, whatever your path turns out to be, you are strong enough to walk it out all the way through to the other side of benzo freedom and healed

 

Keep doing what you're doing -- its obviously working Beddy-bye time for Mrs now See ya 'round on here!

 

Mrs,

[[Di...]]

I will also come back and post updates on how I feel post-taper Who knows, maybe I'll have some different feedback once I'm off the drug entirely!!

 

Take care buddies,

 

Mrs.

 

It's so good to hear that you're so close to finishing. Timewise we're probably pretty similar for an equivalent dose. I started my taper from 5mg V a litte bit before you and I finished it at the end of July. So we're both turtle taperers and there's nothing wrong with that at all. I am totally confident that when you are finished you will be well on your way to being 100% in no time.

 

Thanks, Pam How did you feel throughout your experience (pretaper, during taper, and now post taper)? When was your most "acute" period of symptoms? Or were you able to avoid an acute phase of symptoms entirely? I think that a benzo's half-life might be one other possible major "player" in symptoms and evading a possible acute phase. I've mentioned that I probably wouldn't change anything about my taper. But I have often strongly wondered if I would've had an easier time in the lower doses had I switched over to valium/diazepam to begin with. Ha, in fact, in my toughest times in withdrawal, I often fantasized about how much better it'd been on valium As if it were a *for sure" thing Ah well. I'll never know

 

Its nice to officially "meet" you on here! I've read some of your posts, and heard much about your legendary taper techniques! You've helped many on here So grateful you're here I hope you are doing very well, and I am looking forward to hearing more about your own personal experiences! Rest good tonight, buddy

 

Mrs.

 

It's so kind of you say that 

 

Throughout my taper things were pretty good, as long as I kept on top of how much I was cutting each day. There were ups and downs of course, and any time I'd get a bit too ambitious and try to cut quicker than I should, or if I ignored any signs that things weren't right, I would end up in a ditch with insomnia, anxiety, depression and headaches.

 

For a month or two after I finished my taper, at absolute zero, I did have a bit of an upsurge in my insomnia at times, but all that seems to have passed now (fingers crossed) and I think I'm now about 80% confident in saying I think I've finally kicked the benzo beast in the butt...lol..

 

I hope your post taper experience is as uneventful and positive as mine.

[[Cl...]]

Very nice and profound msj Mrs! You sound healed to me! Congratulations! Keep us posted please. Very interesting hypothesis of an expert!

 

Thanks Clona It looks like your first cut was a biggie, huh? Have you tried holding for an extended period if time to regain stability? While tapering, I would take a 4-6 week holding periods about every 40-50 days (I water tapered similar to daily cuts) in order to sorta "reset" my body towards tapering, and to help regain stability Worked like a charm most of the way down Are you feeling well? I hope so There certainly is no race to zero mg when it comes to benzo withdrawal, that's for sure! Anyways, I hope you are feeling good! Sleep well and G*d bless

 

Mrs.

 

Thank you Mrs! Your advise in holding is great! I have already promised to myself to hold at this dose for almost a month, But I will hold for longer! I Did a rapid wd! At the begining, the worst week has been this! For some reason I feel much better since saturday evening. This morning I feel almost well. I need to travel in a week as part of my job, i dont want to...If felling very sick I wont go. Thank you very much for your message, Congratulations! You are already healed to me!!!

[[mr...]]

Very nice and profound msj Mrs! You sound healed to me! Congratulations! Keep us posted please. Very interesting hypothesis of an expert!

 

Thanks Clona It looks like your first cut was a biggie, huh? Have you tried holding for an extended period if time to regain stability? While tapering, I would take a 4-6 week holding periods about every 40-50 days (I water tapered similar to daily cuts) in order to sorta "reset" my body towards tapering, and to help regain stability Worked like a charm most of the way down Are you feeling well? I hope so There certainly is no race to zero mg when it comes to benzo withdrawal, that's for sure! Anyways, I hope you are feeling good! Sleep well and G*d bless

 

Mrs.

 

Thank you Mrs! Your advise in holding is great! I have already promised to myself to hold at this dose for almost a month, But I will hold for longer! I Did a rapid wd! At the begining, the worst week has been this! For some reason I feel much better since saturday evening. This morning I feel almost well. I need to travel in a week as part of my job, i dont want to...If felling very sick I wont go. Thank you very much for your message, Congratulations! You are already healed to me!!!

 

Aww thanks Clona I still have progress that will be made in the healing department, but I am definitely getting close!

 

My buddy, drew28, is another buddy on here who has continued to work fulltime, with travel, all throughout his taper and post withdrawal. He is currently six months free, and quite the inspiration! I read his posts on days where I'm feeling the "I can't" type of emotions -- we are so much more capable than we know! Northofhere is another buddy whose posts I love! She is 3 years free and healed, but her post withdrawal was one of the worst I've read about -- and she continued working fulltime (with a one hour commute!), eating as "normal" people do, traveling,etc! Buddies like that are such inspiration to me

 

You can do this, Clona! It will be so worth it in the long run, too Take care friend

 

Mrs.

[[bu...]]

I've always heard there is no such thing as a taper that is too slow.