failed taper

[[As...]]

I failed my taper, after 6 months of being off, I started taking 2 mg's of diazepam everyday. Even though it doesn't do much to help, I can't seem to get off the last 2 mg's. Now I've been stuck on it for the last few of months. And I feel my anxiety returning higher and higher. Probably should have stayed off it. I've thought about just going back to 10 mg's like before, but eventually it'll not help, and be in the same mess as before, cause this drug just doesn't make things better. I'm so tired of this. :'(  I don't know what i am going to do now.

[[os...]]

 

Updose to 3 mg and as soon as you are stable, start a very slow taper and then stay off once off.

 

 

[[Be...]]

Yeah, i would agree with the post above. Taper and stay off.

 

Benzos will not make you better in the long run, not even in short. Its simply put poison that doesn't do anything.

 

Just quitting benzos because they are bad is not enough, you need to remedy the things that made you take them in the first place if you want to be better in the long run.

 

As soon you are able to, try to adress the things that bother you in life, try to fix stuff. Then it will all make more sense.

 

Hope you will find peace and recover soon.

 

Love Bejns  :smitten:

[[As...]]

I agree I need to get off and stay off. I did such a slow taper the last time, a micro daily taper at the very end, I wonder how slow I have to go. As silly as it sounds I actually think a year to get off 2 mg's may not be unreasonable. I have a long history with benzos, starting and stopping them over the years, which I think have made it harder and harder to get off each time.

[[Ch...]]

The more times you try to stop an addiction ( or anything) the greater your chances are of finally being able to stop. Tomorrow I start a stress reduction program offered by U.Mass medical school. It's called MBSR ( mindfulness stress reduction ). John Kabat-Zinn started it in 1979. You could check out his books ( Full Catastrophe Living) and/or watch some of his you-tube interviews to see it it sounds like something you might want to try. Trying to work on your anxiety without the use of drugs might be a starting point. I wish you well. There may be a similar program in your area. Mindfulness is a form of meditation that has helped people with anxiety,chronic pain and depression. Be well,

Charliev123

[[be...]]

Reinstating comes with risks. I think you found that out the hard way. I am sorry you are feeling so badly. It sounds like you have reached tolerance, where the dose that once worked no longer has the same effect, in fact it can have a paradoxical effect where it does the opposite of what you want it to do. If it was me I would get off of the 2 mg of valium as soon as possible. A two year withdrawal sounds way to drawn out to me. At a 10 percent reduction every two weeks you should be able to get off in just a few months. Remember, the healing begins once you are off.

[[be...]]

Reinstating comes with risks. I think you found that out the hard way. I am sorry you are feeling so badly. It sounds like you have reached tolerance, where the dose that once worked no longer has the same effect, in fact it can have a paradoxical effect where it does the opposite of what you want it to do. If it was me I would get off of the 2 mg of valium as soon as possible. A two year withdrawal sounds way to drawn out to me. At a 10 percent reduction every two weeks you should be able to get off in just a few months. Remember, the healing begins once you are off.

 

:thumbsup:

[[As...]]

Reinstating comes with risks. I think you found that out the hard way. I am sorry you are feeling so badly. It sounds like you have reached tolerance, where the dose that once worked no longer has the same effect, in fact it can have a paradoxical effect where it does the opposite of what you want it to do. If it was me I would get off of the 2 mg of valium as soon as possible. A two year withdrawal sounds way to drawn out to me. At a 10 percent reduction every two weeks you should be able to get off in just a few months. Remember, the healing begins once you are off.

 

Yeah, I know, but I still want my sanity intact when I do get off it. Or if I don't quit even, maybe it isn't always worth it to get completely off. It seems though I've been through hell getting off it, and I couldn't tolerate the terrible insomnia, I stuck it out for months and months. I was diagnosed with ptsd, which probably was made worse by withdrawal for sure.

 

I'm bothered by people saying the "healing begins once you are off" I was off nearly 6 months and was getting worse. It was like I tapered too fast, even though it was a reasonable taper, followed ashton's method, one milligram a week. Then went slower after that failed. I suffered through all the symptoms, went at it as fast as I could.

 

also I said 1 year, not 2 years, 2 years does sound way too long.

[[os...]]

Reinstating comes with risks. I think you found that out the hard way. I am sorry you are feeling so badly. It sounds like you have reached tolerance, where the dose that once worked no longer has the same effect, in fact it can have a paradoxical effect where it does the opposite of what you want it to do. If it was me I would get off of the 2 mg of valium as soon as possible. A two year withdrawal sounds way to drawn out to me. At a 10 percent reduction every two weeks you should be able to get off in just a few months. Remember, the healing begins once you are off.

 

Yeah, I know, but I still want my sanity intact when I do get off it. Or if I don't quit even, maybe it isn't always worth it to get completely off. It seems though I've been through hell getting off it, and I couldn't tolerate the terrible insomnia, I stuck it out for months and months. I was diagnosed with ptsd, which probably was made worse by withdrawal for sure.

 

I'm bothered by people saying the "healing begins once you are off" I was off nearly 6 months and was getting worse. It was like I tapered too fast, even though it was a reasonable taper, followed ashton's method, one milligram a week. Then went slower after that failed. I suffered through all the symptoms, went at it as fast as I could.

 

also I said 1 year, not 2 years, 2 years does sound way too long.

 

It's all well and good saying "the healing does not begin until you are off" benzosrcruel but what you seem to be dismissing here is the fact that when people taper too fast, they are left with so little functioning that staying off, in some cases, can seem impossible... I have seen many people taper, even slower and they are still unable to stay off post taper.

 

This is a healing process, Ashton advocates a slow taper as do TRAP and in my opinion, yes, we may need to be off to start to fully heal but using the words "begin to heal" seems rather like a blanket statement to me.

 

In my view, the brain needs to adapt to lower and lower doses before being off, most of us taper too fast initially, whilst 2 years may seem like a long taper, it all depends on the individual, how they are feeling because if we feel bad at close to zero, then chances are post taper is going to be extremely challenging.

 

I would vote to taper as slow as seems necessary, there is too much emphasis on here of getting off and that is not how these drugs work, it's about time people realized this, we know it to be unlike other drugs in that regard so slow is often the only way for some with the eventual goal of stepping off feeling mostly healed.

 

The alternative of course is to go faster and then live with a damaged nervous system or "X" amount of months or even years... not an easy way to live at all in my opinion.

 

 

[[...]]

Hi Oscar,

 

When you quote Ashton:

 

Ashton advocates a slow taper

 

Have a look at the chart below - for getting off 40mg Valium, straight out of the Ashton Manual.

 

Ashton's slow taper drops 2mg per 1-2 weeks for the first 9 steps and then 1mg per 1-2 weeks for the next 17 steps. So, if I am reading this correctly (it has copied and pasted in a strange format) you would be off 40 mg Valium in 26 weeks or at the most 52 weeks. Doctors seem to believe this is very slow. The psych who was supervising my taper way back looked at the manual when I took it in because he was pulling me down WAY quicker, said that it was only for people who were 'sensitive'.

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm

Schedule 2. Simple withdrawal from diazepam (Valium) 40mg daily

(follow this schedule to complete Schedule 1)

 

Morning

 

Night

 

Total

Daily Dosage

Starting dosage diazepam 20mg diazepam 20mg

40mg

Stage 1 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 18mg diazepam 20mg

38mg

Stage 2 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 18mg diazepam 18mg

36mg

Stage 3 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 16mg diazepam 18mg

34mg

Stage 4 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 16mg diazepam 16mg

32mg

Stage 5 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 14mg diazepam 16mg

30mg

Stage 6 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 14mg diazepam 14mg

28mg

Stage 7 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 12mg diazepam 14mg

26mg

Stage 8 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 12mg diazepam 12mg

24mg

Stage 9 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 10mg diazepam 12mg

22mg

Stage 10 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 10mg diazepam 10mg

20mg

Stage 11 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 8mg diazepam 10mg

18mg

Stage 12 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 8mg diazepam 8mg

16mg

Stage 13 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 6mg diazepam 8mg

14mg

Stage 14 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 5mg diazepam 8mg

13mg

Stage 15 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 4mg diazepam 8mg

12mg

Stage 16 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 3mg diazepam 8mg

11mg

Stage 17 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 2mg diazepam 8mg

10mg

Stage 18 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 1mg diazepam 8mg

9mg

Stage 19 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 8mg

8mg

Stage 20 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 7mg

7mg

Stage 21 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 6mg

6mg

Stage 22 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 5mg

5mg

Stage 23 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 4mg

4mg

Stage 24 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 3mg

3mg

Stage 25 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 2mg

2mg

Stage 26 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 1mg

1mg

 

    Schedule 2 Notes:

 

    You could probably manage Stages 1-5 (or even Stages 1-10) in weekly intervals (but take 2 weeks between stages if you prefer).

 

    The later stages are probably better taken in 2 week intervals.

 

    When you get down to a dose of 5mg daily, you could begin to decrease in 0.5mg doses, but most people manage with 1mg reductions.

 

    You will need to utilise a mixture of 10mg, 5mg, and 2mg diazepam tablets to obtain the required dosages. Halve the (scored) 2mg tablet to obtain 1mg doses.

 

    If your starting dose is 20mg diazepam daily, you could begin at Stage 10, but in this case you could reduce by 1mg every 2 weeks.

 

Somehow many people at TRAP and many people here claim that they believe everything Heather Ashton wrote and think they are following her guidelines but seem to ignore the recommended withdrawal schedules. They say that they are way too fast. It seems to me that if you are claiming to be following a specific method you can't really pick and choose which bits to follow.

 

I am wondering what Heather Ashton thinks of these drawn out tapers and the thought of it taking 2 years to get off 2mg Valium. Perhaps someone who is in contact with her might ask. If Valium is so hard to get off, why does anyone cross over to it?

 

Actually, I am just remembering that my husband wrote to her about something (that was bothering me) ages ago and she responded. Now I can't even remember what it was. I think her answer was very vague. I will do a search on my email.

 

The last 2mg of my failed taper were the worst - in fact I got to 1mg and chucked it in. Perhaps that is because it is such a low amount that it isn't even working at all. Who knows...

[[os...]]

Hi Oscar,

 

When you quote Ashton:

 

Ashton advocates a slow taper

 

Have a look at the chart below - for getting off 40mg Valium, straight out of the Ashton Manual.

 

Ashton's slow taper drops 2mg per 1-2 weeks for the first 9 steps and then 1mg per 1-2 weeks for the next 17 steps. So, if I am reading this correctly (it has copied and pasted in a strange format) you would be off 40 mg Valium in 26 weeks or at the most 52 weeks. Doctors seem to believe this is very slow. The psych who was supervising my taper way back looked at the manual when I took it in because he was pulling me down WAY quicker, said that it was only for people who were 'sensitive'.

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm

Schedule 2. Simple withdrawal from diazepam (Valium) 40mg daily

(follow this schedule to complete Schedule 1)

 

Morning

 

Night

 

Total

Daily Dosage

Starting dosage diazepam 20mg diazepam 20mg

40mg

Stage 1 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 18mg diazepam 20mg

38mg

Stage 2 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 18mg diazepam 18mg

36mg

Stage 3 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 16mg diazepam 18mg

34mg

Stage 4 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 16mg diazepam 16mg

32mg

Stage 5 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 14mg diazepam 16mg

30mg

Stage 6 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 14mg diazepam 14mg

28mg

Stage 7 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 12mg diazepam 14mg

26mg

Stage 8 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 12mg diazepam 12mg

24mg

Stage 9 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 10mg diazepam 12mg

22mg

Stage 10 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 10mg diazepam 10mg

20mg

Stage 11 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 8mg diazepam 10mg

18mg

Stage 12 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 8mg diazepam 8mg

16mg

Stage 13 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 6mg diazepam 8mg

14mg

Stage 14 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 5mg diazepam 8mg

13mg

Stage 15 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 4mg diazepam 8mg

12mg

Stage 16 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 3mg diazepam 8mg

11mg

Stage 17 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 2mg diazepam 8mg

10mg

Stage 18 (1-2 weeks) diazepam 1mg diazepam 8mg

9mg

Stage 19 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 8mg

8mg

Stage 20 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 7mg

7mg

Stage 21 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 6mg

6mg

Stage 22 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 5mg

5mg

Stage 23 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 4mg

4mg

Stage 24 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 3mg

3mg

Stage 25 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 2mg

2mg

Stage 26 (1-2 weeks)

--

diazepam 1mg

1mg

 

    Schedule 2 Notes:

 

    You could probably manage Stages 1-5 (or even Stages 1-10) in weekly intervals (but take 2 weeks between stages if you prefer).

 

    The later stages are probably better taken in 2 week intervals.

 

    When you get down to a dose of 5mg daily, you could begin to decrease in 0.5mg doses, but most people manage with 1mg reductions.

 

    You will need to utilise a mixture of 10mg, 5mg, and 2mg diazepam tablets to obtain the required dosages. Halve the (scored) 2mg tablet to obtain 1mg doses.

 

    If your starting dose is 20mg diazepam daily, you could begin at Stage 10, but in this case you could reduce by 1mg every 2 weeks.

 

Somehow many people at TRAP and many people here claim that they believe everything Heather Ashton wrote and think they are following her guidelines but seem to ignore the recommended withdrawal schedules. They say that they are way too fast. It seems to me that if you are claiming to be following a specific method you can't really pick and choose which bits to follow.

 

I am wondering what Heather Ashton thinks of these drawn out tapers and the thought of it taking 2 years to get off 2mg Valium. Perhaps someone who is in contact with her might ask. If Valium is so hard to get off, why does anyone cross over to it?

 

Actually, I am just remembering that my husband wrote to her about something (that was bothering me) ages ago and she responded. Now I can't even remember what it was. I think her answer was very vague. I will do a search on my email.

 

The last 2mg of my failed taper were the worst - in fact I got to 1mg and chucked it in. Perhaps that is because it is such a low amount that it isn't even working at all. Who knows...

 

Hi Xana,

 

Ashton quotes in a yiutube video that her taper schedules are not the last say in benzodiazepine withdrawal and in fact states that sometimes a very slow taper is necessary and that the patient should dictate the rate that they can tolerate, I cannot recall the exact words but she implies a taper of at least a year or 18 months for some and then goes on to say it matters not how slow as there can be no such thing as too slow in her opinion... but that it is best to keep moving forward and not go back.

 

I have my own theory on the 2 mg mark, I think those that reach it too soon are the ones that all of a sudden feel bad because they go from feeling the drug to not feeling much of anything at all... this could be why the 3 mg to 2 mg stage is hard for me because I really do not feel the drug working now... but taken slow, I am hoping that by the time I reach 2 mg, my brain has become accustomed to not really feeling anything and maybe, just maybe, I will find the last 2 mgs easier... I know it does not work that way for everyone and it still seems to me that it is best to taper the last 2 mgs slow as opposed to faster, even when feeling well.

 

Some feel better at 2 mgs, others feel worse but I often wonder how both groups reached that dose to begin with, as I feel that plays a major part in how we cope with the last 2 mgs, my theory may be off entirely and I may want to jump or taper faster at 2 mgs because the taper simply might not work at that dose but the way I think about it is that many on here DO manage to taper the last mgs very slowly, so it can't be impossible... I just think many crash before getting there... just like I would have had I carried on tapering down too fast... I just happened to crash at 4 mg and not 2 mg.

 

If the last 2 mgs are impossibly hard after all the time I will have taken to get there, I would not be able to endorse a super slow taper and will concede that Ashton cuts are the better way out... I may have avoided some bad suffering but I have paid with many more months of my life to try and do this the gentler way, it may or may not work, I have yet to find out but I figure if others can take a year to taper the last mg, then it's clearly not impossible.

[[As...]]

I wonder if age has anything to do with how difficult it is to get off, I'm still young almost 30. But I started taking this stuff when I was 16, and i just wonder if it changes anything when you take it young, cause I've heard you are still growing in some ways until 25. I think that may be one reason I am having such difficulty now. In some way I think my brain was growing still back then and it learned to balance it's chemicals around whatever the drug was doing. It's just my theory on this, obviously it could be wrong, but I think that's why addictions, and dependance, whatever it is when it is started as a teenager it's difficult throughout life to beat, both being physical, and psychological dependance, usually it's more rooted in the younger the person is when they start. Last time I was truly free from this drug more than just a couple of years in my early 20's was before I was 16. I believe the brain has some plasticity and always seeking balance, it just seems that with some people that might take longer, for whatever reasons. So when I say getting off 2 mg's might take a year, or even longer, I don't think it's unreasonable. Some people started this drug older, when their brains were not doing critical growing, or wasn't on it as long as me, and they don't have anxiety disorders, sure some can go fast. But sometimes it seems like there is an obsession on here that everyone has to get off this stuff right now. But I think the important thing is that I've maintained taking less and less since the beginning of 2012.

 

I have survived my family telling me to take more, my doctor trying to talk me into taking more of it. From my experience, over the years, and my stubbornness now, I refuse to listen to them, because deep down I know this drug has messed me up, kept me from healing and growing in life. I've got a lot on my plate to deal with, it's hard enough and I just can't add in withdrawing from benzos right now, I did that for a year and half. Perhaps the process just burned me out, but if I can stay at 2 mg's, and then lower that slowly when I can again I think I'll finally beat this huge problem. I'd like to know who I am as an adult without benzos in my system, cause I haven't really known.

 

Sorry for the rant, just needed to say all that.

[[th...]]

I guess the real question is whether you feel bad or better on the benzo. If you feel worse on the benzo why stay on it? I hit tol and refused to increase which sent me into a dark hole of tol wd and being bedridden. The taper has been pure hell also, but I am sick on it also. Most people on this forum are sick on the benzo and so they choose to come off. I guess the benzo turned on them so to speak, not having any benefits. Just sickness. In that case, no reason to stay on and tapering is the only option...unless you increase dose over and over and over....I wasn't willing to subject my life to this routine and there is no guarantee this will help either.

 

Grinch

[[As...]]

I guess the real question is whether you feel bad or better on the benzo. If you feel worse on the benzo why stay on it? I hit tol and refused to increase which sent me into a dark hole of tol wd and being bedridden. The taper has been pure hell also, but I am sick on it also. Most people on this forum are sick on the benzo and so they choose to come off. I guess the benzo turned on them so to speak, not having any benefits. Just sickness. In that case, no reason to stay on and tapering is the only option...unless you increase dose over and over and over....I wasn't willing to subject my life to this routine and there is no guarantee this will help either.

 

Grinch

 

Both, I feel better and worse on it. But I stayed off for about 6 months and felt so terrible because of unrelenting insomnia, it was all about that mostly. I chose to go back on a small dose only because I am serious about getting off it, and couldn't fathom withdrawing all the way from a higher dose. I felt so poorly off it and it never got better, mostly it was because of lack of sleep, and all this withdrawing woke up a ptsd in me unrelated to the benzos, although it felt like a traumatic experience from the benzos too after all I've been through. I was going on less than 6 hours of sleep a week at one point after I jumped off it. I thought if I held out staying off I'd die, I was losing my sanity. And lack of sleep caused me to hear things that weren't there when I was in acute that first month. I had it so rough, it was completely terrifying. For months I couldn't tolerate much stress because I couldn't sleep, and the nausea, basically i'd just lay there days a week hoping it would get better, some days I could get out and get things done but barely. It wasn't getting much better even 6 months later.

 

Tolerance withdraw is a concern for me, I wonder if I've hit it now. Next time I withdraw from this I'm not micro daily tapering, but instead I'll cut it and hold for much longer periods. hopefully I can get my mind in a better state for this, I am not prepared yet to get off.

 

I think, and hope that this is the right method, I have no idea if this will make things worse or not, or if I held out an extra couple of months would I have been better by now if I stayed off, I don't know. I know I pushed myself to my limit, and that is a terrifying place to be at. I did the best I could, gave it 100% and more.

[[Di...]]

I agree I need to get off and stay off. I did such a slow taper the last time, a micro daily taper at the very end, I wonder how slow I have to go. As silly as it sounds I actually think a year to get off 2 mg's may not be unreasonable. I have a long history with benzos, starting and stopping them over the years, which I think have made it harder and harder to get off each time.

 

That is certainly not a silly comment to make. FWIW, it took me about 14 months to get off my last 2mg, 9 months of which was my last 1mg, and I don't regret taking that long one little bit.

 

I even held for about 2 months during that time and it did not put me into "tolerance" or whatever word people like to bandy about. It was the time I needed to do my taper as comfortably as possible for myself. 

 

There should never be any hard and fast rule about how long a person takes to taper any benzo. You do it as fast or as slow as you feel comfortable with. The Ashton Method is a guide only, which even Dr Ashton acknowledges. I think she would be quite happy to see people take as long as they felt they needed to, as long as the end result was that they got off benzos, and stayed off. That's the most important thing. There is no point rushing things, just so you can say you are benzo free, if the end result is that you suffer for months or years after, or you end up reinstating.

[[...]]

Hi Diaz,

 

While I agree that getting off benzos whatever way it takes is the goal here. However I don't know where you have seen Heather Ashton support long drawn out tapers of miniscule doses. If you can show me where you saw this I will certainly stand corrected.

 

I just checked the Manual and this is what Prof Ashton says about the last couple of milligrams:

 

Getting off the last tablet: Stopping the last few milligrams is often viewed as particularly difficult. This is mainly due to fear of how you will cope without any drug at all. In fact, the final parting is surprisingly easy. People are usually delighted by the new sense of freedom gained. In any case the 1mg or 0.5mg diazepam per day which you are taking at the end of your schedule is having little effect apart from keeping the dependence going. Do not be tempted to spin out the withdrawal to a ridiculously slow rate towards the end (such as 0.25mg each month). Take the plunge when you reach 0.5mg daily; full recovery cannot begin until you have got off your tablets completely. Some people after completing withdrawal like to carry around a few tablets with them for security "just in case", but find that they rarely if ever use them.

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha02.htm

 

Her words:

'Do not be tempted to spin out the withdrawal to a ridiculously slow rate towards the end (such as 0.25mg each month)'

 

Other professionals may have other opinions but that is what her guide says.

 

Best wishes.

 

Xana

[[Di...]]

I can't honestly point to any specific part of her guide because it's a long time since I've read it. I'm just saying that I think she would be happy with what people choose to do, as long as they reach their ultimate goal.

 

I still believe that you need to taper at the rate you feel comfortable with. If someone sees that as too slow, it really doesn't matter, because it's just their opinion, even if it's Dr Ashton's opinion, because hers is not the last word on tapering.

[[...]]

With all due respect, I don' think you can really know what Prof Ashton thinks. By all means go ahead and say what you think but please don't put the words in someone else's mouth. I don't think you can really say:

 

I think she would be happy with what people choose to do

 

She's not your intimate friend with whom you have discussed this. It seems to me that she thinks it is pointless to drag on with these endless tapers of miniscule amounts.

 

I haven't read the whole Manual in a while but I have the link that I refer to when necessary and provided it for you to be able to peruse it to see if what you are claiming is correct.

 

even if it's Dr Ashton's opinion, because hers is not the last word on tapering.

 

If you think this, why quote her?

 

And whose word is that last one?

[[Di...]]

Come on Xana, let’s not take anything I say out of context or be argumentative for the sake of it. In both cases I said “I think”. You even quoted what I said, so you should have noticed that. I have not put words in anyone’s mouth. I am saying what “I think” – in other words “my opinion”.

 

I think she would be quite happy to see people take as long as they felt they needed to

 

I'm just saying that I think she would be happy with what people choose to do, as long as they reach their ultimate goal.

 

I also wasn’t aware that I specifically quoted her. I only said what I thought. I also never said anyone has the last word on tapering. I have the last word on my personal taper, and everyone gets to have the last word on theirs, but the last word on tapering in general? No one has that – not even Dr Ashton, because everyone is going to experience something different.

 

Can we let this go now? You and I have had a more amicable relationship lately. Let’s not ruin that with nitpicking.

[[In...]]

Well,

 

I sure don't have any quotes to pull out of anywhere, but I think that Oscar is correct about those YouTube videos where Ashton says her taper schedules are not the last word on benzo w/d.

 

And it seems that not long ago, BAT (battle against tranquilizers) came out with new "guidelines" about taking this whole thing more slowly and following your own lead.

 

I do agree that the only person who should determine the speed of ones taper is the person themselves. It's hard enough to get doctors to avoid taking the whole thing over, and I also think that Ashton would most likely agree with the  stance of letting the person be their own "determiner" although I certainly don't know her nor have I ever corresponded with her.

 

And yes it often seems like the site is all about just getting off this stuff and not considering the consequences that await on the other side of zero. Also, I certainly don't agree that "healing doesn't begin until your off" or else why bother to taper at all? Just CT it, or do a detox. Wow, that sounds like fun.

[[go...]]

I think the "healing doesn't begin until you're off" is misinterpreted from Ashton.  She uses the terms "full recovery cannot begin" and "true recovery cannot really start".  That doesn't mean (to me) healing hasn't begun at all while tapering.

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha02.htm

"full recovery cannot begin until you have got off your tablets completely"

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashsupp11.htm

"True recovery cannot really start until the drug is out of the system"

 

 

[[In...]]

Yep.

 

I also think it's misinterpreted by Ashton readers as obviously (to me) the total healing can't be complete until the benzo is completely out of ones system. I mean seriously, if any of it's still there, it's doing it's thing to your brain.

 

But to me, it was the way it was originally stated by the moderator here. "Remember, the healing begins once you're off." And it was in the context of what seemed to me to be "hurry and just get off this last 2 mgs."

 

But the OP had been taking the V again for 5.5 months. Somehow that doesn't translate well for me into "hurrying up." That right there sounds like a recipe for more problems.

 

 

[[...]]

Diaz - Pam:

Let’s not ruin that with nitpicking.

 

While I find this condescending, I will remove myself from further discussion. Not because I want to be nice but because I have just broken my pledge to myself not to get involved in pointless discussions on here ever again.

 

Many, many, many more important things to concern myself in my life and the world.

 

It is as pointless as an atheist arguing with a fundamentalist Christian.

 

Xana

[[Di...]]

It has indeed been a pointless discussion Xana.

[[On...]]

With all due respect, I don' think you can really know what Prof Ashton thinks. By all means go ahead and say what you think but please don't put the words in someone else's mouth. I don't think you can really say:

 

I think she would be happy with what people choose to do

 

She's not your intimate friend with whom you have discussed this. It seems to me that she thinks it is pointless to drag on with these endless tapers of miniscule amounts.

 

I haven't read the whole Manual in a while but I have the link that I refer to when necessary and provided it for you to be able to peruse it to see if what you are claiming is correct.

 

even if it's Dr Ashton's opinion, because hers is not the last word on tapering.

 

If you think this, why quote her?

 

And whose word is that last one?

 

Actually, Prof. Ashton continued to speak and consult well beyond when her written words were published. Those in the professional field know of the conference wherein Prof. Ashton said that, based on the volumes of people's experience since she had quit practicing, many people would benefit from slowing way down near the end and holding cuts longer also.

 

The real tragedy is that she only "spoke" those words at a conference and never wrote them down HERSELF or published them HERSELF.  They only exist as verbal words spoken to those professionals attending the conference.

 

Because she was retired by that time and did not publish that info herself, people are left with the impression that her "Ashton Manual" was her final say on the subject.  Far from it!!!  Once upon a time I had a link to info on that specific conference but it disappeared with my last cellphone switch.  I will not get into a debate on the subject; it is what it is and ultimately each person must pick and choose their own way out of this benzo mess.  Whatever WORKS is the RIGHT way, no matter what another's experience is. I'm just so sorry Prof Ashton isn't available anymore to clarify once and for all what her "end game" perceptions and beliefs were.  :'(