Leap Till You Sleep

[Guest [ba...]]

Seems a fair number of people are proponents of getting off all sleep meds and grinding through some sleepless nights until natural sleep again occurs.  I thought I'd create a thread for those (or interested) people to share their thoughts/experiences.  So here goes...

 

I did a quick wean off my final sleep meds earlier this week.  I haven't slept well since (Sunday) - probably 2-4 hours of broken sleep most nights, and maybe nothing this past night (it's hard to know for sure).  It's a little before 6 am, and I've given up for the night.  I'm trying to remain positive, but sleep depravation has a way to distort thoughts. 

 

I felt like I was going to fall asleep last night.  I had listened to calming music then to delta waves, but just when it seemed like sleep would happen, it didn't.  I also taught last night (first day of class at the community college), and maybe that revved me up a bit.  I've been alternately hot and cold much of the night.  Can't count how many times I've thrown off the bed covers only to put them back on 5-10 minutes later.  With all the tossing and turning this past week, I hope to see a little weight loss (I still need to lose 5-6 benzo pounds).  I also have a dull headache.  I've had a lot of headaches this week.  Maybe the headaches are from dropping the final sleep meds?  Doesn't matter.  That's what ibuprofen is for.  Gotta go to work in a couple of hours.  I feel funny - kind of a weird, non-sleep hyper feeling.

 

I'm open to nutritional approaches to sleep, but only fairly normal stuff like maybe a glass of warm milk.  fwiw - I didn't eat dinner until after class (9 pm); maybe that also affected me.

 

Hoping to hear from others...

[[8d...]]

I've been off Seroquel now for 22 days, and it's been a roller coaster.

 

The first 2 days off, I barely slept, and then for the next 15 days, I slept every night, with just a little magnesium and melatonin before bed. The sleep was pretty restful, and I woke up most days feeling good.

 

Then I had one bad night, and that set everything off. My anxiety spiked, and I just couldn't get tired.

 

I went 4 days without hardly any sleep, and then finally slept on the fifth night for an hour and a half! Then fell asleep half hour later for about 5 hours. No supplements at all that night.

 

Last night sounds like your night... I went to bed, thinking I was tired, and found myself feeling wired and wide awake. Tried leaving the wife with my bed, going to the couch, the spare room, etc. Nothing worked. Took an OTC sleep aid at 6 am, and woke up out of it at 8:30am, burning hot and covered in sweat.

 

Not sure if I can make it through this... I feel like I know have a terrible anxiety disorder, and I will not be able to work through it.

 

Anyone else suffering like this?

 

I quit Zopiclone (an a little Lorazepam) on May 4, and then Seroquel on July 31.

 

Is this my own anxiety causing the insomnia, or some sort of WD?

[[fl...]]

This thread interests me, because I take OTC antihistamines a few times a week.  When I was in acute, they wouldn't work at all.  Now I can sleep well with half a Unisom.  At this, point I wonder if it's all psychological.  I think I have some sleep PTSD from early w/d.  Up until then, I never knew it was possible for a human to stay awake wired for that many nights.  Now that it has happened to me, it frightens me to think of it happening again.  I look forward to more input from others here.

[[be...]]

No alcohol limit? I'd be too scared to even think how my CNS couldn't handle just one drink. Maybe that's why you're having trouble sleeping??? Your GABA is being messed with, just with a different drug.

[Guest [ba...]]

No alcohol limit? I'd be too scared to even think how my CNS couldn't handle just one drink. Maybe that's why you're having trouble sleeping??? Your GABA is being messed with, just with a different drug.

 

I don't drink all that often.  Usually just 2-3 times month.  I had two beers tonight after work (retirement party).  That's usually all that I drink.  Was hoping that it might relax me a bit.  Sadly, I then had to go to a meeting that got very stressful.  Got home near 10 pm - wired.  Trying to calm down.  Not the best recipe for sleep.

[[La...]]

This thread interests me, because I take OTC antihistamines a few times a week.  When I was in acute, they wouldn't work at all.  Now I can sleep well with half a Unisom.  At this, point I wonder if it's all psychological.  I think I have some sleep PTSD from early w/d.  Up until then, I never knew it was possible for a human to stay awake wired for that many nights.  Now that it has happened to me, it frightens me to think of it happening again.  I look forward to more input from others here.

 

This is part of your problem. You have anxiety about not sleeping and that feeds the problem. You have to slowly buildup to a fearless state of mind. I have traveled this road, I am not all the way there but after 1 whole year I have come very far. Now when I have a fearful thought on sleeping, I am able to quickly reject it, cast it aside. And that is when I knock off. It is very hard to unravel the fear and anxiety associated with insomnia. It has been a very gradual process for me, slowly building confidence, rejecting fear anxiety.  CBT helped me in part, as it allowed me to identify and recongnize the distorted thoughts I was having that were preventing me from sleeping (e.g. "this will never get better," "I will get really sick and maybe die from chronic insomnia,"if I don't sleep I wont be able to function the following day."

 

Well:

 

It has gotten better for me (cognitive distortion #1)

I never got really sick and died from many days of little to no sleep (cognitive distortion #2)

Even after no sleep, I did function the next day, maybe not 100%, but the jobs got done (cognitive distortion #3).

 

I have battled additional cognitive distortions feeding my insomnia anxiety. We cant do much about the physiologic substrates of insomnia (e.g. benzo wd), but WE can stop feeding the monster and making things much worse with our mind.

 

[Guest [ba...]]

I very much agree, Laser! 

 

I got a little broken sleep after 3 or 4 am this morning (maybe 2 hours) which is an improvement from the night before.  While I'm not ecstatic about being awake at 3 am, I was able to hang out (mostly on the couch), and was pretty mentally relaxed.  It took a while to clear out the fog this morning. Then I went for a bike ride and did the fastest 20 miles (32 k) that I'd done in probably 30 years.  I'm hoping that this morning's (early) hard exercise and some light yard work today (in the sunshine) will translate into better sleep tonight.  We'll see.

 

Bads (no cannabis for a week; no doxy for 4 days)

[[al...]]

Just a basic question as it appears some of you work: do you drive yourself to work without sleep? I've tried this in the past but once it became interminable, I couldn't function and I knew I'd become a threat to other drivers and pedestrians.

[Guest [ba...]]

I bike to work.  Started doing that a couple of years ago when I decided to drop 100 pounds.  I even biked to work the first month after I c/t'd Ativan (2 mg).  There was no way that I could have driven a car safely back then.

 

As poorly as I've slept this week, I don't feel terrible.  I'm fairly alert (kind of hyper, actually).  I did a short drive earlier with no problem.

[Guest [ba...]]

I'm happy about last night's sleep.  I got around 5 hours with no meds whatsoever.  I felt increasingly sleepy around 10:30 pm.  I fell asleep on the couch watching SNL (maybe for 45 minutes), then woke up and headed to bed.  It took a while before I got back to sleep, but I eventually did and got close to 3 hours (then the usual 4:15 bathroom thing).  I was able to quickly get back to sleep after that for another 2 hours. 

 

Will repeat the cycling, yard work (sunshine) and hope for another decent night. 

[[fl...]]

Hey, Bads, that's great news!  Were you taking doxy every night?  Did it begin to cause you problems, or did you just want to get off of it in order to know that you can sleep on your own?

 

Keep reporting your experience!

 

Laser, thanks for your great response to me.  You are right.

[Guest [ba...]]

I was using some cannabis (usually a tincture) almost every night, and sometimes also the doxy (maybe half of the time).  The doxy by itself made me feel very groggy/grouchy in the morning, and it didn't work all that well for me.  I was taking doxy before I started benzos, and it usually only gave me 4-5 hours of sleep (but sometimes much less).  I think that with more time, I can get at least that much without it.  The combination of doxy + cannabis would give me 6-7 hours of sleep, and the 'stone-over' from the cannabis would help nullify the bad feeling from the doxy.  But I needed to get off that stuff for my own good.

 

I biked again today (further), and will be doing more work in the yard this afternoon.  We'll see if that translates into another decent night of sleep.  I'll certainly keep reporting my progress.

 

I was so happy to finally get some sleep that I felt positively joyous this morning during my bike ride.  I hope the sleep and the feeling lasts.

[[La...]]

I'm happy about last night's sleep.  I got around 5 hours with no meds whatsoever.  I felt increasingly sleepy around 10:30 pm.  I fell asleep on the couch watching SNL (maybe for 45 minutes), then woke up and headed to bed.  It took a while before I got back to sleep, but I eventually did and got close to 3 hours (then the usual 4:15 bathroom thing).  I was able to quickly get back to sleep after that for another 2 hours. 

 

Will repeat the cycling, yard work (sunshine) and hope for another decent night. 

 

Coincidence? Last night, I too felt sleepy at 10:30 pm but held out til SNL came on and I too fell asleep watching SNL on the couch only to awaken later on and head to bed. Woke up a few times in the night after that, I seem to recall having some trouble getting back to sleep as well, but this morning I feel pretty good, so I must have knocked off during those early am wakeups without realizing it.  Also indulged in some White Rhino indica before bed which these days is a good thing. Also biked, again today with the dog and daughter. Some definite common patterns here. 

 

 

[Guest [ba...]]

Yes - many common elements (but no white rhino for me).  There's plenty of good 'stuff' out in my garage (it's calling me), but I'm gonna hold off for awhile.  Let's both sleep well tonight!

[[fl...]]

You guys are cracking me up with the "stuff" talk. 

[Guest [ba...]]

You guys are cracking me up with the "stuff" talk. 

 

Glad you like the 'stuff' talk.  I miss it, but have no choice.

 

After a truly banner day yesterday - clearly my best day (mentally and physically) since long before dropping Ativan - I didn't get much sleep last night.  Maybe 2-3 hours and mostly in the early morning (4ish-7am).  I had one of the most vivid, violent dreams that I can ever remember.  Prior to that dream, I felt a moderate amount of anxiety throughout the night while I lay awake on the couch, but I couldn't focus my mind to clear it out.  Too much mind chatter.  I'm clearly nervous about my upcoming trip.  Maybe if I'd get my damn talk written...

 

So exercise and sunshine and 8/5 days off my two respective meds (including that 'stuff') ain't enough yet.  On the positive side, my weight continues to drop (always gotta look for those silver linings).

[Guest [ba...]]

I had another decent night's sleep last night.  I had much less anxiety going into the night - maybe because I finally got some packing done.  More importantly,  I got a lot of work done on my upcoming talk.  I sucked down some sort of calming tea during the day (3 cups).  Maybe that helped to calm me down a bit???  I also ate a whole lot of crystallized ginger in the evening.  There are a couple of reports linking ginger with sleep.  Seems there are a couple also linking it with insomnia (internet searches often gets you what you search for).  I didn't eat it to sleep.  I didn't even think about the possibility until this morning.  I just like crystallized ginger, there was some sitting around, and I was hungry.

 

I fell asleep pretty easily and stayed asleep for nearly 4 hours before 'nature' called.  I did the stupid thing and tried to ignore it.  I got back to sleep for about an hour, then nature insisted.  Decided to stay awake after that (5 am) to begin acclimating myself to the big time change coming up (I leave for China tomorrow).  I had a repeating dream - fortunately not a disturbing one like the previous night (that was way weird - even for me).  Five hours doesn't sound like a lot, but it's enough to get me through the day.

 

Natural sleep is coming, my friends! 

[[ga...]]

Very interesting reading all your comments regarding sleep.  Lot's of it rings true in my issues with sleep.  Started out using OTC meds back in the 90's to help me sleep.  I continued to have trouble.  Lots of anxiety at bedtime and many nights with little or no sleep. This led to the road of a/d's and benzos.  Helped a bit at times but I fell into the benzo trap along with ambien dependence.  THis led to feelings of depression, a vicious cycle.  There were some better periods mixed in but I knew I had to get off the drugs in order to keep working.  I left work for a couple of years while trying to get off the meds.  Still using the Ativan now and then for a couple of years while working.  Again, big mistake.  Just made things worse.  \\

 

Now a year plus off the Ativan, I would say I'm doing better.  I am in the mist of having what you might call a "wave'.  Sleep has been hit and miss.  Some nights none in the last  7 days, others 3 to 5 hours.  Still putting the pressure on myself, which brings the anxiety level up.  I do whatever is possible to help calm myself in the evening.  Exercise is very important sometime during the day.  I still rely on zzzquil, doxy and benydryl along with some melatonin.  I try to skip some nights and alternate the different meds.  I'm just not at the point I can junk the meds.  No doubt PSYCHOLOGICAL deprendence here.  THe big problem is when I do get some sleep I still find I wake up at 4a.m. or so.  My mind starts thinking anxious or depressing thoughts...just can't shut them down.  Also, the nights where I don't fall asleep, I really find I start getting extremely anxious after an hour or so and end up going to different rooms in the house and trying to lye down and calm myself.  Always a futile effort on my part. I just need to be more accepting of those bad nights.  No, they won't kill me and yes I will feel lousy the entire day.  Oh well!  It's an ongoing battle for me and one that I HOPE improves as time goes on.  Looking for the magic bullet.  Just not sure it's out there.  It really is all about calming the inner self talk and improving ones outlook and attitude.  Easier said than done!!

[Guest [ba...]]

Not that I have this all figured out yet, but there are certain behaviors which I find to be destructive to my sleep.

 

- Telling myself to stop doing something mental (stop thinking, stop worrying, stop planning).  That don't work for me

- Late night work that requires much thought, emotion, compassion.  Even playing piano late at night messes me up.

- Any moderate to strong emotion (anger, depression)

- Expectations (I should be doing whatever, or the thought that I deserve a good night's sleep)

- Procrastination (feeds the above)

 

A couple of activities that have helped me.

 

- Cuddling, love-making (works much better than porn).

- Occupying my mind with really boring, easy, mundane stuff.  I dose off playing Diablo 3 all the time, but I've played it so many times that it's almost automatic.  My character never dies, and I don't play on-line, so know what to expect.  Many people abhor the idea of using a laptop at night, but the blue light issue hasn't been a biggie for me (that I'm aware of).  I can also fall asleep in front of the TV as long as the programming is non-activating (Golf Channel works well for me).  My wife falls asleep reading technical journals (I need to try that).  Meditation can also work here, but my discipline is poor.

[Guest [ba...]]

One silver lining regarding insomnia.  Feeling 10 hours jet lagged is about the same as I often feel.  One silver lining to dropping all sleep meds.  When I finally took one (doxy), it worked.

 

bads (currently in Beijing)

[[fl...]]

Bads,

 

Wishing you a safe trip with good sleep!

 

Floc

[[be...]]

No alcohol limit? I'd be too scared to even think how my CNS couldn't handle just one drink. Maybe that's why you're having trouble sleeping??? Your GABA is being messed with, just with a different drug.

 

I don't drink all that often.  Usually just 2-3 times month.  I had two beers tonight after work (retirement party).  That's usually all that I drink.  Was hoping that it might relax me a bit.  Sadly, I then had to go to a meeting that got very stressful.  Got home near 10 pm - wired.  Trying to calm down.  Not the best recipe for sleep.

 

Okay. I thought you meant by unlimited drinking that you were popping about a dozen drinks a night. Every night. Glad I got that sorted out. ~~ Bets

[Guest [ba...]]

Got back from China a couple of nights ago.  The challenges of two 10-hour time changes in two weeks definitely challenged my sleep quality, but I survived.  Essentially no sleep for two days after arrival, but then a pretty good night (5 hours) and I slept adequately for most of the rest of the trip.  I took melatonin a few times and doxy once.  I also drank a fair amount of Chinese 'wine' (i.e. liquor), but not as a sleeping aid.  The group I was visiting liked to drink (a lot!), and I had to make a respectable showing (country and honor and all that).  Actually 'rolled' 5 nights of 'C' or 'B' level sleep during one stretch.

 

The return home is also proving to be challenging.  I took some of my magic (mmj) tincture the first night home.  I was kind of hoping that it would really jump start a change in my timing.  I took much less than I had regularly used just a month ago (I had been off mmj for 24 days).  I slept like a baby.  However, I took nothing last night, and while I fell asleep quickly, I didn't stay asleep for long.  I know that I could take more tincture, but the idea is to get off all sleeping meds, so I'll probably just tough it out for a few days until my internal clock adjusts again.  I was outside and active during most of the trip.  I think that helped me to adjust.  Now that I'm back at work, I'm inside all day.  I think that I need to get outside in the sunshine to help reset my internal clock.  Gotta find an excuse to escape the lab.

 

fwiw - I consider melatonin an acceptable short-term aid for travel.  Will continue to stay off the doxy and mmj. 

[Guest [ba...]]

Last night I had the best night's sleep in years.  Probably got 10 hours.  Woke a couple of times during the night (once for the bathroom), but I got back to sleep quickly.  I didn't wake up for good until after 9 am - much needed for my jet lag.  I did take some sleeping meds including NyQuil (I have a cold).  NyQuil has always worked well for my sleep (ZzzQuil has not).  Obviously, NyQuil is not something to take every night.  I don't know why it works so well for me, but I'm pretty ecstatic to have slept that well.  I also played soft delta wave-containing ambient music through my pillow speaker all night.

[[ga...]]

Bads...great to hear.  I actually took some Nyquil last night also and did fairly well.